FRINGE Video: Executive Producers Explain Season 3 Finale


Still having trouble getting your head around the Fringe season finale? Fear not, executive producers Jeff Pinkner and J.H. Wyman provide some explanations on the events that flashed before your eyes in this new video from Fox.

Check it out after the jump. Updated with hi-res.

[via]

Comments

  1. JoA says

    Pulling consciousness into the future does not negate existance!! They have to do better than that. Bell’s consciouness was pull out of his dying body and rested somewhere until summoned by Walter with that bell. Does that mean Bell never existed?! That just doesn’t make sense. I hope that they can come up with something better than that pat answer.

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    • GeigerCounter says

      Agreed. So far it all just sound stupid. Like the first three seasons didn’t even matter. They better come up with a better explanation.

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    • Talyn says

      The explanation from the producers was not to do with cause & effect. Pulling his consciousness into the future didn’t CAUSE Peter to cease to exist. It was a consequence of the choice Peter made to bridge the two worlds. Pulling Peter into the future gave him the knowledge that this was the choice that had to be made.

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  2. Nico says

    Ya that was a weird way of putting it, I think they meant that sending his consciousness forward was the first step in his sacrifice because once he had seen it, he made the bridge to avoid that future, but the path to that future necessitated the removal of the initial reason for destroying one universe or another with the machine: Peter. So ya, they don’t quite acknowledge the full paradox (that Peter created a timeline in which he does not exist) but the disappearance was a sort of course correction by the universe (a way of saying it is that he sacrificed himself in the new timeline in order to save the universes and in order for the new bridge to be used effectively). So the act of creating the bridge (which involved sending his consciousness into that future) was an act of sacrifice, he just maybe didn’t know it.

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    • JoA says

      The problem with the way they left it is that I felt that progress was already going to be made with Peter alive and as an emissary for both worlds. If there was still war between the two even without his never having existed, his sacrifice seemed in vain. It makes no sense. Walter said that if something went wrong, they would have Olivia as a fail safe. IMO…something went wrong!! Peter should not be annihilated like that!

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      • sean says

        and I do believe Olivia will be the fail safe…I imagine she will be the one to bring Peter back into existence…when her memories were wiped by Brandonate, she still couldn’t fully forget Peter, and I assume she won’t now either..

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        • LMH says

          Olivia was also the one to notice a strong sense of deja vu in “White Tulip” as the first hint that those events had been occurring again and again. If someone is going to ‘feel’ anything amiss it will be her.

          Walter also expressed in White Tulip the idea that the universe retains traces of all our actions, that the past cannot simply be ‘erased;’ all actions matter. In the end, the White Tulip made it to Walter…the result of events in a time loop that for all Walter knew (stuck in the loop and not traveling through as Peck could) had never occurred. Perhaps Peter is now outside of or capable of moving through time as Peck and the Observers have been able to. The emotional entanglement of persons across universes makes me believe that such “spooky action” can link individuals across time, across loops. If deja vu is remembering what you did in another reality (1.19), and/or what you yourself have done in a past time cycle (2.18), (and alternates seem to be similarly connected in the sense of enduring similar events) why can’t you remember someone you knew and cared for deeply in another timeline but never had the chance to meet in this one? Olivia can manipulate reality with her mind. There is very little she can’t do, if anything at all. It’s all up to emotion, connection, and memory now.

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    • says

      I agree with you Nico. I could try to use different words, but I’d still be saying the same thing you’ve already said. I admit that immediately following the finale I was confused a bit. However, after a few days of letting it sink in and I feel I understand it just the way Pinkner and Wyman intended.

      I don’t think Peter’s sacrifice was in vain. By creating a bridge he did something different than had been done before in this time loop. He didn’t choose one universe over the other. The BBM allowed him to see what the future would be if he chose to destroy the red universe. It sucked! The world was falling apart and Olivia was dead in 2026. He found another way, even if he ceased to exist.

      Remember, this is Fringe. There are any number of ways Season 4 can pick up. The finale does not mean everything that happened from season 1 – season 3 never really happened or that those seasons don’t mean anything. Everything we have seen unfolded the way we saw it. Instead of being introduced to a third universe it is a second timeline. The possibilities are endless.

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  3. Fring3Fri3nd says

    I really wanted to like the season finale but still feel unsettled. The episode felt disjointed and rushed – putting too much in a short timeframe while making great leaps forward without preparing the viewer. One of the things I enjoy about Fringe is the groundwork it lays for the viewer to become engaged – to connect the dots if you will – I am trying to connect the dots of the past 2 episodes and find that the dots lead me to confusion – like Peter when he says “I was confused” – I should not have to have the producers explain after the fact what the episode meant – and even when they do – I still don’t fully get it. However for Fringe’s sake, I am willing to give the producers a pass right now – fully expecting greater detail in understanding of the finale during S4 – I also want to see the deleted scenes for these episodes – I am sure that some essential guideposts were left on the cutting room floor to make the time slot work.

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  4. Megan says

    ummm. I’ve rewatched the episode and I’m still not liking it. Which is a shame cause I love this show.

    It’s just that now it feels this entire last season was pointless!

    This is just my opinion so please not get snarky with me!

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    • fedorafadares says

      Megan, I will support you in your opinion. I fear the writers will ask us to just forget about the character development in this past season — which was very significant for all the leads — and just accept that Walter has embraced his faults and that Olivia is not afraid to move forward any more.

      I’m hoping there’s a simple, elegant explanation for “how” the main characters arrived where they are, both emotionally and in the plot. Hoping, because I fear the effort we’ve all put into knowing who Walter, Olivia and Peter was for nothing, and that would be a shame.

      It’s been a fun ride the past three seasons. And while the journey itself has been fun, I’d like to feel like there’s a payoff, emotionally, for our investment.

      They haven’t disappointed so far, so…

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  5. Nico says

    This does seem to be a polarizing episode, but in my opinion the series really needed a jump-start right about now, and this is a great way of really complicating the mythology. I thought the episode was great, really complex and full of nice details. It was everything I love about Fringe: fun, thrilling and emotionally layered. So I’m thrilled with where they are going, giving us a new look at all of our favorite characters. Also, I like puzzles and I think its fun when the writers leave some details of the story to be discovered by people who take the time to think them out.

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    • JoA says

      I agree that the episode was great! I was ready for what direction that they would take and how Peter would re-enter the storyline or Josh Jackson’s new iteration of Peter. The whole thing of Peter suddenly not existing was just not made very clear and after listening to the reasons they stated, I’m left with a sour stomach. I’ll definitely be here when season 4 rolls around, but I do hope for better detail in a story we’ve waited since season 2 to see unfold. They never said when or how the machine was made. Just telling us that Walter was “first people” is still too vague. More needs to be developed because the machine was and still is a good story line.

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      • Nico says

        Sorry JoA now I see we are on the same page. I’m not sure they should have bothered with this “explanation” after seeing it. It should have been either give us the complicated explanation or just make us wait till september, not this short and pretty vague little clip. I’m sure it will be fleshed out next season, but after this I would have rather just waited.

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        • William Bishop says

          Let’s just wait for other videos they release and for Comic Con, I’m sure that until S4 we’ll understand at least a part of it.

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        • Dylan says

          lol no, “jumping the shark” is a very common phrase, and has been used for decades.

          That and this video are just coincidence – but very probable, given the context.

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      • Darth Kate says

        Ok, NOWHERE was it implied that walter and astrid and ella MADE the machine and the drawings! we still don’t know their origins! i stopped watching the review as soon as the dude said that. Epic Fail.

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            • Dylan says

              It’s a great dynamic too; a fan, and a person who occasionally watches it.

              Means you get a judgment both on how it stands as an episode of Fringe, and how it stands as an episode of television.

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            • Dylan says

              short haired guy: “I love Fringe. You like Fringe.”
              long-haired guy: “Liked. I Liked Fringe…”

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        • Dylan says

          he’s going on what Peter said to Walter before he disappeared. He said that the machine was sent back by someone from the future – maybe Walter, or Ella.

          That’s where the guy would have gotten it from.

          Mind you, I’ve heard people make mistakes here but I still read their entire post through anyway.

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  6. M says

    I GET IT NOW! Peter witnessed an event that does not exist (the future he prevented). Therefore, he cannot exist because his existence depends on that future existing.

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    • M says

      You can’t have a memory of something that never happened. The universe corrected this paradox by eliminating Peter.

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      • JoA says

        Actually, Alistair Peck showed that you can. He went through many time loops but his shielding protected him and he remembered each loop or else how would he know he messed up in his math calculations. Witnessing an event in future is like what the producers compared to a psychic. They project themselves to see a future, but they are still alive in that present time to see it. Peter can create that bridge with that machine, but I still do not see how the existence of the bridge negates Peter’s existence. Peter’s existence did not depend on the his life in the future, only the red univers’s life did. Even September showed the consequence of bringing Peter over to our side caused Bobby to lose his. Consequences of actions. Changing your mind not to destroy your old universe and then make a bridge, shouldn’t smash your atoms all over the place unless he was the energy needed to create that bridge! Still, it would be a death of Peter, not obliteration of existence…unless Peter didn’t want anyone to morn him and he then he took himself out of existence. At least we would know a reason.

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        • g33k says

          from JoA “Actually, Alistair Peck showed that you can. He went through many time loops but his shielding protected him and he remembered each loop or else how would he know he messed up in his math calculations.”

          hm, so at the beginning of “602 est” Brandonate says they put a Faraday cage (I’m assuming that’s the same name of the thing Peck was using) in the machine to absorb static (or something) along with the lead shielding, could this mean that since Peter had walked out of the machine he was no longer protected and shielded by it? Could he still be OK in the machine (or still in it) if there is still a Faraday cage around it to protect him from how he’s changed events? I wonder if that is how they’ll explain his disappearance and how he’s going to eventually come back.

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    • M says

      The fact that the observers still remember Peter shows that they are somehow independent of our plane of existence. They can also observe planes of nonexistence.

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      • Nico says

        As to the Observers, they probably do know where Peter is (maybe he’s hanging out with William Bell). But the theory going around is that they are sent from the future (maybe) to make sure the timeline stays on track. The timeline changed when Walter broke the rules, Peter created the new timeline and “corrected” it. The other clue is that Peter can use their weapon so there is a relation between them but that remains to be seen (I’m guessing not until somewhere near the series finale)

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    • Nico says

      well except that that future had to exist (as RoSull stated before) in order for Walter to send the machine back in time to be found again and for Peter’s consciousness to be thrown into that potential future to see i before being returned to the present and taking a different path from that future by creating the bridge. So that future does exist, just in a different timeline. And you can, theoretically, have a memory of another timeline. But by creating this new more positive future, Peter created a timeline that did not involve him (because his kidnapping accelerated the war much more rapidly). He sacrificed himself (again, as Rosull has shown) to give everyone another chance, but perhaps he didn’t realize that the ramification of such a choice was that he could not exist. Remember Walter said in the future, there will be consequences. Some things can be changed, others are inevitable. The characters came to the same place in the bridge, it was inevitable, but they did so without ever knowing Peter.

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      • Dylan says

        But the machine still exists in the bridge, which means in the future a giant destructive wormhole will still open up – meaning that the future is still apocalyptic.

        And a bridge was made using a machine built specifically for a man who never existed and can only be operated by the same man who never existed. So how is the machine there and how was the bridge made?

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        • John Scott says

          agreed thank you and i’ll post this bit again to question what the writers wrote and hopefully i’ll get a hint
          1) if peter never was…
          FAUXlivia and peter never made a bebe.
          -meaning… no genetically derived peter blood to start the red universe’s machine
          -meaning peter doesn’t climb into the machine in universe number1 ?
          -so then a bridge cannot exist and red universe was never destroyed anyway (presuming that this juncture was where the obliteration of red universe occurred).
          ???

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          • Dylan says

            lol this is the best question;

            if Peter never existed, why was the machine in the room at the end?

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            • Nico says

              I’m telling you it’s because of the temporal bubble Peter created–two mirroring rips in spacetime connecting two universes. we have with this bubble, a third alternative to the two other verses. Peter existed in the two others, but not this third as a result of changing the path. Peter exists but not to the people in the bubble. And remember time is not linear, so when we talk about changing the past, etc. this bubble is tied to a different past where the characters met at this place without meeting Peter. you can change the how and why, but some things have to happen, maybe not in the universe we know. There has to be a common history for the universes for this all to make sense, so that the machine would be there at the end. Youre right in placing emphasis on the wormhole because everything leading up to it was the reason to send the machine back to give Peter the chance to change the timeline. Now why he disappears is a question to be answered through variations of the many worlds theory that I won’t try to get into. Perhaps once the bubble was established, the timeline asserted itself and he was no longer acknowledged by the people in the bubble, leaving him outside the schrodingers bubble and the premiere of the 4th season will probably be trying to find a way back in. Just a theory, and I’m not an expert on the many worlds theory. But the machine still has to come from that common history, otherwise you would be right–it would not be there.

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              • alexis says

                hi again, i’m loving your theory, so i’m back with more doubts! :) can a character’s conciuosness be dragged from one timeline to another?? you said before (probably didn’t mean it litterally, but it made me think) that maybe peter is hanging out with bell… last time we saw bell he was in olivia’s subconcious and for what we know, he’s still somewhere in there. could that be the case with peter and the way to pull him into the new timeline? the “new” olivia doesn’t know peter, probably he doesn’t even exist in her world. but can one character’s various conciousness from various timelines be connected at all?? if walter was able to drag peter’s to 2026, could it be done between different timelines??

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              • loveit says

                You are much more patient with these explanations! I find that I am at a loss as to how to explain this in writing!! (PS-I will message you, but am currently re-reading a few things :) Besides it’ll be a long summer)

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              • Dylan says

                the machine exists in the background. Peter specifically stated that he’s made a bridge between the worlds within that room, not outside of it.

                If the machine exists and is in that room then so must Peter.

                Once again you base your entire argument on something that hasn’t yet, and perhaps never will be, established within the show.

                We must work on what the show has already provided, and based on that your theory doesn’t work.

                As of this moment in time regarding the show, this twist doesn’t make sense – and there are glaring plot holes as a consequence of it.

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                • fedorafadares says

                  The idea that Peter *alone* can operate the machine seems faulty. We’ve seen both Henry and Olivia can activate or deactivate the technology. So I’m wondering if Peter’s existence is really necessary for the machine to be there.

                  Looking at what the story of Fringe has show us:

                  Where did we get the notion that only Peter could work the machine? Peter, himself, interfaced biologically with the machine. The original drawing showed only Peter. Sam Weiss said only Peter could operate the machine. All these point to Peter as the sole operator.

                  But now we have information to the contrary. Henry could activate it. Olivia could deactivate it. We saw a more complete drawing. And we’re presumably NOT to trust Sam.

                  So that’s what we know.

                  I suppose an argument could be made that only Peter can operate the machine once it’s activated, since he did operate it. But that’s not to say Olivia couldn’t do the same. Or Henry, for that matter, if he were capable of decision-making as an infant.

                  I think the machine could exist in that room without Peter, but it begs my biggest question of the finale: HOW did everyone/thing arrive at that temporal bubble? What developments led to that moment, since Peter didn’t exist.

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                  • Real1 says

                    Actually the red BBM was activated by 23 DNA of Peter not Henry , which suggest that Peter’s DNA can switch on the machine but the one which can drive the BBM is Peter , and Olivia is the one how can switch off the BBM which mean in any cases the BBM will be switched on by Peter’s DNA no one can drive it or operate it without Peter , and if Peter drives or operates the BBM he will need Olivia to take him off from it because only Olivia who’s can switch it off .

                    Which will suggest that future Peter did enter the BBM and stick in it !! there is no future Olivia to take him out .. which will suggest that our Olivia may travel to future to take future Peter out !

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      • M says

        I think you’re on to something. Perhaps the consequences of changing the past were a slightly different series of events involving Peter not being born and the conflict between universes still occurring.

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    • Dylan says

      That’s the first time I’ve ever heard of the future determining one’s existence in the past. And the reason being, because that doesn’t make sense.

      Ok, so his future doesn’t exist – but what about his present, what about his past, what about the fact that the future he saw was responsible for the paradox regarding the machine but if it doesn’t exist then how is the machine existing where it is?

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      • Schoko says

        Yes! Peter’s Past!! Maybe’s he’s at Big Eddie’s…or with Tess….So did they really exist? What was the point? I know it was Season 1, but….

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      • Schwakamole says

        Walter said, while in the future, that his timeline could not be changed but Peter’s could because he would be operating in a bubble within that timeline. Obviously, Walter did not send the machine back and include the prophecies the minute Future Peter stepped back into the machine. With the writing and the technology used and the codes (Astrid in play?), it seems that this happened much further in the future and is tied to Walter’s unchanging timeline, thus the reason the machine still exitsts. It’s very plausible, with this new future in play, that Walter perfected Bellie’s soul magnets which allowed him to continually move his consciousness (and possibly others as well) into other people so as to continue his reasearch far far into the future (heck, maybe not into other people at all, they had reserves of people’s blood on hand so they probably just cloned their bodies the moment they got too old). There’s nothing that says a wormhole couldn’t still open up in the very distant future, just maybe not in 2026. Perhaps it happened hundreds of years into the future and that is when Walter sent the machine back with the manuscript. So in this sense, the machine could still be there while Peter is operating in his bubble and changing his choice so as to make the new universe. The reason Peter ceases to exist is that his sole purpose was to prevent the destruction of both universes. Once this was accomplished (and it was very precise, the moment he fully explained what he had done and what they needed to do, he was gone), there was no need for him to exist in either reality.

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        • Nico says

          Great explanation. the one thing I would add to his disappearance, is that as soon as he explained what he did, the potential future for disaster in the timeline he created was collapsed. It’s still a potential future in the timeline Peter originated in, but no longer in the new one. However, Peter is still tied to the original timeline, so when he had effectively established it, he disappeared back to his original timeline (?) in the way that Olivia can travel between universes. I may be confusing myself here, but I guess my point is the potential reality that Peter averted in the bubble, then collapsed taking Peter with it (?)

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        • Dylan says

          But he would need to exist in order to make any change. A time-traveler is a paradox in itself, the traveler must exist in order to accomplish anything, otherwise, come the future – there’ll be no one to go back and do anything.

          If a wormhole opens up on Earth, regardless of how it is, it pretty much underlines any action that Peter may or may not have made, since the world will be in an apocalyptic state anyway.

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        • Dylan says

          Walter and company still sent back depictions of Peter, and a machine that was designed for and can only be operated by Peter.

          If he never existed, then how did anything else to do with the machine, including the machine itself?

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    • Dylan says

      The machine exists in all timelines, sent back from a future that all worlds must share otherwise the machine would not exist in the past.

      And for that, the variable must still exist.

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      • Nico says

        No, because the past is shared, not the future. The elements of the machine remained, despite other differences so it would remain in pieces in several universes. in the one Peter creates the bridge for, they still found the machine because they share a common past at one point with the future where Walter sent it back

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        • Dylan says

          but that again relies on the idea that the universes were all one, which at the moment the show has not put forward, so you cannot actually use that.

          That’s like me saying that there’s a scientific-wizard from an entirely independent universe producing observers – since it isn’t in the show, I can’t use that (even if there is still a possibility of it, albeit a ridiculous one, that it could occur).

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          • Nico says

            Well, ya, we don’t have all the information so we are attempting to fill in the gaps with theories

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          • loveit says

            Well, I think the idea (theoretically, so I am assuming it’s a valid guess for the show) is that any possible past that could have happened did happen. Therefore it is valid to assume that the universe(s) that we are talking about were all one. Besides it is currently the ONLY possible or reasonable explanation. If the redverse was destroyed it stands to reason the red bbm was also destroyed. Therefore it can not be sent back in time. There are two Olivias, Walters, Astrids and originally two Peters – why is the fact that there are now 2 machines problematic?

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            • Dylan says

              A wormhole opened up and consumed the entire red universe, who knows where all the material went.

              Good point though.

              Although the paradox still exists, and therefore requires Peter to exist and some sort of future which would enable a wormhole to bring the machine back in time.

              When dealing with paradoxes, one shapes time and existence like this;

              the same ends will always be met, only the means for reaching it can be changed. In other words, when discussing constants and variables, the future is the constant, the present (which becomes the past) is the variable.

              This is what LOST nicely referred to as ‘course-correction’.

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              • loveit says

                Perhaps I missed something or am confused. I thought the past was always the constant and the future was the variable? Theoretically. Is it different in this context for some reason?

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              • Schwakamole says

                We do not know that the wormhole that opened up in the future destroyed the red universe. In the scenario in this episode it did. But that doesn’t mean that it happened after Peter course corrected.

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                • Dylan says

                  A wormhole still opens up, and the machine is still sent back (via the paradox) – which means that, for the machine to have any significance, it had been activated and the future is an apocalypse.

                  Even if the machine didn’t create the wormhole, a wormhole still opened up – meaning world destruction.

                  And the machine would require Peter, as the two are tied together like an object and a space for it to occupy. One cannot exist without the other.

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                • Dylan says

                  not the one that opens up at the beginning of the episode and is used for the paradox, but Walter explains a single anomaly that wipes out his entire universe – a vortex, which is a wormhole (for some reason they call it vortex every other time but call it a wormhole in the future).

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  7. Nico says

    The machine is sent to a time of common history, so it exists in all the universes when they split into different timelines. And the wormhole opened in the one future, not necessarily in all futures, because the machine existed in the distant past so the characters in this new timeline could have still found it without a wormhole in their exact future.

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    • Dylan says

      But that relies on the idea that the universes were all once whole and then split up miraculously for no reason, which the show gives you no evidence for.

      As far as the show is concerned, these universes have existed since the very beginning.

      That also defeats the idea of a paradox. If the paradox was broken then the machine wouldn’t have been sent back, but because it was and it didn’t vanish with Peter as it would have if the paradox was broken, the same future must exist.

      Well, either that or the showrunners screwed their own paradox up.

      Note: you don’t need to post separately from my comments. You can just click ‘reply’ underneath them.

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      • Nico says

        I know. The producers have made clear that these two universes must have diverged at some point, because there are so many similarities. City names, people are mostly the same. They have been separate from the beginning of the show obviously, but not since the “beginning” of history

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        • Dylan says

          They raised the idea that they could be diverged, not definitively stated it, and that’s going by their words which hasn’t yet showed up in the programme.

          And separate from the beginning of the show is still millions of years after the arrival of the machine.

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          • Nico says

            No but that’s the point, for so many things to be similar (people) they had to diverge at some point. There has to be a common history. You can’t have so similar realities come into existence independent of each other. They are entangled on a quantum level.

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              • Dylan says

                No, many worlds theory involves all probabilities simultaneously occurring, such as a tree diagram spreading further and further out with each branch creating four extra universes.

                Many worlds theory also disqualifies any possibility of an alternative reality being accessed by another.

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                • Dylan says

                  That should be “creating an extra universe”. Don’t know where the “four” came from.

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            • Dylan says

              You’re suggesting that human consciousness, and problem-solving capability (which our species didn’t become effectively capable of for some time), creates universes? As if our species, unlike any other in existence anywhere in the entire universe and beyond, has the conscious ability to create other realities?

              Ok, no. We are not discussing that level of metaphysics. We are not awarding the human species some sort of godly power to involuntarily create entire existences with a single thought, especially when we have only existed for a fraction of the time the universe has (and universes don’t just crop up and be formed in an instant, they would have to grow, and to be alongside us would mean that they have been forming for an equal amount of time and therefore have existed as long as time itself).

              You could almost apply occam’s razor to this debate. Whatever requires the least amount of new assumptions…

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              • Nico says

                Not necessarily, though it is not completely in the realm of the impossible. But I meant that our choices have repercussions which can engender the creation of new realities.

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                • Dylan says

                  Nicely put.

                  Possible, but I get everything is possible at this point in time.

                  We shall see in September what they decide to make of this.

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                  • Dylan says

                    lol typos – I really wish there was an ‘edit’ button.

                    That should be “guess”, not “get”.

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      • loveit says

        Paradoxes can’t necessarily be ‘solved’ – that is the definition of a paradox. A logical and reasonable premise or argument that leads to a conclusion that is not logical (makes no sense) but may in fact still be true or possible. It is not the same as a contradiction – a contradictory argument is nonsense and can never be resolved satisfactorily. They are hard to explain in a way that is satisfying because they defy logic.
        Schroedinger’s cat is a paradox that most people know of – there are a lot of them in philosophy.
        I struggle with these but I think that the paradox is that the machine still exists but in this timeline will not in fact go back in time, because that future now exists in a separate timeline that has since (theoretically) collapsed and won’t happen. (It won’t happen because the observers “observed” the creation of the bridge with the machine collapsing all other possible scenarios into this one only where the redverse is not destroyed with the bbm)
        As for the video – it doesn’t really matter whether Wyman and Pinkner understand this enough that they can explain it well, which is not easy to do! They have geeks that work for them that ensure the science is correct and/or plausible depending on what they are doing…

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        • Dylan says

          were they the same geeks behind the “soul magnets”?

          A time-related paradox requires whatever instigates it to exist alongside it, like an object will always need a space to occupy – the two must exist for each other.

          Peter must exist for the machine. And the two, together, must exist for the paradox.

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          • loveit says

            But isn’t that assuming the machine is still “programmed” for Peter only? Which isn’t necessarily true. The fact that Peter no longer exists suggests all things related to him no longer exist either, such as baby Henry or their memories of him. Therefore the machine should still be able to exist but doesn’t necessarily require Peter. Just as Walter still did something to cause universal chaos that had nothing to do with Peter…

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            • loveit says

              I meant to add that if Henry used the machine so could Walter(nate). In fact that would prove it can’t be made *specifically* for Peter.

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              • fedorafadares says

                Yes, loveit, that’s my thought. I posted above about the possibly faulty assumption that Peter *alone* can operate the machine. We were given that idea, initially and repeatedly, but Henry’s ability to activate and Olivia’s to deactivate it show the Peter-is-everything assumption to be faulty.

                My crackpot theory is that William Bell is the true operator of the machine. His consciousness was embedded in Olivia and I will go on a kooky limb to suggest that his DNA was implanted in Peter. (We all suspect that something funky is going on with Peter physically. Genetic tinkering isn’t out of the realm.) That might also account for baby Henry’s abilities with the machine.

                It would also be an answer to why Bellivia had to exist at all. It was an unpopular development in season 3. I’d like to think it had more meaning than just Walter’s regaining his confidence.

                Crazy? Maybe. But not out of the realm.

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            • Dylan says

              However, because of the paradox seen in ‘The Day We Died’, the machine sent back was Peter’s.

              Also, to be operated by someone else and come to the same ends, eventually, supports the idea that if not Peter, it is someone who is exactly like him – thus defeating the point.

              Although it’s not impossible, it does come with its own bag of issues.

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            • Dylan says

              Whoever can activate the machine, and bridged the universes, would exist in that room at the very end, but there is no one else there beyond Walternate, Brandonate, Fauxlivia, Broyles, Walter, and Olivia.

              That room literally just got bridged, and all the characters were there.

              I wonder, since Peter just disappeared, what their thoughts are on why the two universes just randomly got bridged together by an unoccupied machine?

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    • JoA says

      True, but the machine would have, or should have, something of Peter’s “signature” about it to operate it. Unless it had two with Olivia being the second. I mean a DNA “key” is hard to miss. AND if Walter sent back the machine, then he also must have sent back the manuscript with Peter and Olivia. So that still should be evidence of his existence at some prior time in some prior universe, right?

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      • Nico says

        Good thoughts JoA. Honestly, I think we are pretty much stuck at this point. We just don’t have enough information yet to fill in the blanks, not until September.

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        • Dylan says

          precisely, but as it stands at the moment what was introduced, with Peter disappearing, doesn’t make sense.

          If he hadn’t vanished and it been revealed that he “didn’t exist”, this issue wouldn’t exist.

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        • Danielle says

          Right Nico–I think we are all pretty much agreed on that. Which means it’s going to be a very loooooooooong summer.

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      • Dylan says

        yes, but of course to not exist, is to not exist AT ALL. The picture exists and machine exist, and that comes from the same place that Peter does, brought forward by a past where he exists.

        If he doesn’t exist, then so doesn’t the paradox, and so the machine isn’t sent to the past with the manuscripts.

        But they were, so…

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        • sean says

          we didn’t see the picture or the manuscript after Peter disappeared, so it’s an assumption to say that they still exist. As far as the machine goes, in the original timeline (before Walter created the paradox by sending the machine pieces back), the machine was there, presumably invented by William Bell or Walter (Nina and Walter agreed that the machine was William Bell’s technology back in season 2), so there’s no reason to assume it wouldn’t exist now…it just wouldn’t have been dug up from the ground, and thought to be a first person invention

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          • Dylan says

            a) the scenes leading into the final one, involving Walternate and Fauxlivia, show one of the depictions – with the same function of Olivia.

            b) The machine exists in the room after Peter disappears – he has just used the machine, it was his decision to bridge the worlds, stemming back from a paradox created which stems from a future where Peter existed.

            It is plausible to suggest that there is now someone to replace Peter. Although, that only means that this person is exactly like Peter and makes the same decision he did, therefore rendering the twist pointless.

            Plus, for the paradox to exist the world must still be collapsing in the future, so whatever Peter may or may not have done, he hasn’t stopped anything from happening.

            The means will change, but the ends will always remain the same.

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            • Dylan says

              Wait, no. If Peter was indeed replaced by someone, then that someone would exist in that room with Brandonate, Walternate, Broyles, Olivia, Fauxlivia, and Walter.

              But there’s only them.

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            • sean says

              the scene leading into the final one took place while Peter was still in the machine, that isn’t proof that the picture still exists after Peter disappears. For the paradox to exist, the world still has to be collapsing, yes, but not for the machine to exist. The machine existed in the original timeline, or it’s pieces couldn’t have been sent back the first time

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  8. Dylan says

    Oh, so his consciousness from the future that can now not exist was brought back, but because it shouldn’t exist Peter disappeared.

    ohhhhhhhh now I get it!

    wait….no, hold up. I understand his consciousness perhaps appearing, but that doesn’t explain why his body disappeared, or where the original consciousness of Peter went.

    He wasn’t his future-conscious self before stepping into the machine, so why is it that he now never existed?

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        • Dylan says

          I just think they went a little bit far with that. Just having the universes bridged and seeing Walter and Walternate face to face would have been a big enough cliffhanger.

          And maybe having the observers outside saying that it didn’t work (in other words, things really stuffed up – would have meant they would all have to step in, which would have been epic – peter and the future-fixer crew vs the observers)

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          • Nico says

            Well I thought it made sense for them to say it was fixed, because remember they tried to stop Peter from being saved by Walter and brought to the other universe, so in effect, Walter threw the timeline off and the Observers knew they needed to get it back on track. They wanted the future we see in the end. So…why do they want this future? Probably because in the other one everyone died. Maybe this timeline is one where the machine is not used (?) and makes destroying individual universes much more difficult. So there were still minor problems like you mentioned (The machine was there) that the Observers had to factor them in to this new one, so Peter was removed (again ?).

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            • anonymous says

              Didn’t the producers say that they were planting the seeds for season four in season one?

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              • Nico says

                Ya. and i believe it. I think the main point of contention here is this (credit to Critical Myth):

                “I think there are two main camps right now, though the variations within each are practically infinite and evolving by the second. The first group takes the finale literally: Peter never existed, and was some kind of artificial or artifactual construct designed to repair the damage done to the two universes, getting both worlds to the point where an intersection point could exist for cooperation. Members of that group are frantically trying to reconcile three years of storytelling with this new information.
                The second group looks at it from a different interpretation of temporal mechanics, with the intersection of the two worlds in that bubble of spacetime effectively representing a third alternative in which Peter does not and never did exist, as a consequence of changing history to avoid the future for the Fringe Prime universe that was seen in the bulk of the episode. It’s not that Peter actually didn’t exist, but rather, that to the people inside that bubble, Peter might as well have not existed, since they don’t remember him at all. For them, the paths that brought them to that point in space and time involved actions and choices that didn’t include Peter.”

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                • Nico says

                  I’ll go ahead and paste the rest of the review for anybody who wants to read it here (again credit to Critical Myth entil2001.com):

                  “For my own part, I fall into the second camp, the one anticipating that Peter exists outside of the Schrodinger’s bubble. I fully expect to see him return in the fourth season, with the first episode or so exploring the pseudo-scientific reason for his “disappearance”. (Those looking for good theoretical ground in the argument/speculation might delve into the various interpretations of the Many Worlds Theory, already prominently mentioned earlier in the series.)
                  I loved the twist, particularly because it really made the episode rise above the somewhat pedestrian approach throughout most of the finale. We’ve seen this before: a character jumps into the future, sees the outcome of a particular choice, and then makes a different choice to prevent that future. Only “Fringe” has all but adopted a variation on the familiar “Lost” theory of temporal mechanics, with a Many Worlds layer on top of it: whatever happened, happened, but the how and why can change and it may not be “our universe” in which it happened.
                  It’s all great fun, and as a potential future, it’s remarkably well rendered. That future seems credible with respect to the context of the series. One can believe that it will all lead to those moments. But what really makes it work is how the various revelations affect Peter, and how it leads him to certain realizations (like the truth about the First People) and to that momentous choice.
                  It would be easy to assume that none of that future ever happened. That’s usually how it works. A different choice is made, and the terrible future is averted. But Walter has already warned the audience: that’s not how it works. Some things can be altered and avoided, but some events are inevitable. Within the context of Many Worlds, that future will occur. It’s a question of whether or not Peter, as an agency of free will, can create a new timeline as well.
                  After all, if Walter is correct about the true nature of the First People, then what is the compelling reason why they sent the Vacuum back into the past, millions of years? What is the mechanism by which they do so? It’s the wormhole in Central Park and everything that led up to its creation. The only way for Peter to use the machine to generate the new outcome/timeline is if the machine was sent back in time. That requires the existence of the future seen in this episode. By the laws of Many Worlds theory, that future must exist.
                  It brings this discussion (and, in a sense, the series) full circle. As Walter said a long time ago, certain choices generate branch points in the Many Worlds theory, where two timelines exist simultaneously, with a common history. This finale has to be seen in that context. And September’s statement to the other Observers must also be taken in that context. I’m sure it will be explained early in the fourth season.”

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                  • SF says

                    Thank you, Nico. This was a conclusion I had come to on my own, thinking over the episode and what the Observers say, this past week. I really think that Peter does exist, outside of the room. That he had to exist in order for the future to be created. I wonder if the paradox is that Peter can’t be in that room, because it was him who created it – his energy that his powering the machine still to hold it open? That the machine needs his consciousness in order to work? I know I will be coming back to this idea/season finale over and over this summer, working this out. So I have to say well done to the producers! I enjoyed this video too from them, though I wonder if they believe Peter is ‘gone’ from the show, winked out of existence completely, or if there are things they can’t say because it’s for Season 4. I think the latter.

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              • Dylan says

                That’s them tying the series together, but I sincerely doubt they introduced those things in season one knowing what they would do now.

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                • Nico says

                  I wouldn’t be so sure. They have said they have a 5, 6 and 7 year contingency plan for plot arcs, so I think its safe to say they were planting the seeds early on.

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                  • Dylan says

                    I would be sure. a) they would never have had an idea of how long the show would exist for
                    b) there are numerous plot holes and dropped story threads that are not indicative of a completely thought out plot.
                    c) so, if I said that I was writing a book and have twenty years worth of plot arcs, you’d believe me?

                    This show struggles to recall the cliffhanger of a previous episode, how is it expected that the entire plot for the series was worked out from the first few episodes of the series?

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              • Dylan says

                Don’t trust them on that. They’re reaching into the past and involving present stories in order to tie the series together.

                If it were true that they had planned it all along, there wouldn’t be so many plot holes and lingering story threads from years ago (Peter has a dark past, and there’s people after him and stuff…no wait, he never existed! haha, we don’t have to explain any of that now!).

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            • Dylan says

              But the universes are still damaged and have somehow been bridged by a machine that can only be used by Peter, so how does that occur without Peter existing? Especially when it was bridged as a result of the future having occurred.

              The producers explanation involves his consciousness, from the future, being unable to exist – however, that neither explains why his entire body disappeared, why a change he made at that point in time had an effect on time before it (defying all rules of time-travel, conscious or otherwise), and what happened to Peter’s original consciousness.

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  9. Alex says

    I LOVE that uneasy feeling! I LOVE that Peter disappeared! BRING ON SEASON 4.

    It started slow but FRINGE has become THE best Science Fiction TV series on air currently.

    As in LOST it doesn’t matter if they knew in season one what would transpire in season 3, I am excited about the ride we are on.

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    • JoA says

      Hey, now that would be something interesting…Peter in dark mode traveling the universes. It would be the paradox of Peter creates or Peter destroys. I think there were some wasted opportunity in not continuing to delve into that darker glimpse we had of Peter when he killed those shapeshifters. Even Walter said that when he touched the machine it “weaponized” him. I can see how, in season 4, we come back to the end of season 3 in finding out that Peter took himself out of existence because of the temptation to mold things the way he wanted and the emotional upheaval between the Walters centered on Peter. But, in taking Peter out of the equation, both Walters now see their own choice without Peter at all because they were accusing each other and not thinking about Peter. Even the Olivias were willing to be the negotiators to fix things and no anmimosity between them because of Peter. That would make sense…but just in that Schrodinger bubble.

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      • says

        I agree. I would love to see dark Peter be more explored. This would be an interesting addition to the storyline. The Destroyer send by The Observer.

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  10. Real1 says

    Ok , as a fans … i disagree with the producers ! LOL hahah , Peter sacrifice ?? how ? …. if he did a sacrifice .. he must be disappearing right after he switch on the machine , but he was disappearing while he was talking … which mean he didn’t do a sacrifice but something wrong did happen with the BBM from the future , I mean … future Peter went to BBM right ? so he is coming from future to the present time right ? .. and he did an other choice by the bridge right ? and then he disappear right ? .. where is the sacrifice that they are talking about ?

    I think they are messing with us again to cover what they will do in S4 .. so i will agree :D .. but if not .. i disagree lol .

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    • Sofia says

      Future!Peter never went to the machine. They build the machine and send it back in time. Peter’s body (from the presente or future) does not travel. Only his mind, his conscience from the presente went to the future.

      Yes, he does made a sacrifice, a conscious sacrifice, but in the present he didn’t know that. In the future, he probably was aware about what would happen to him but he doesn’t care, for him this is better than to live in a world full of pain and without Olivia.
      And Walter knew too. When Walter does suggests the idea, he’s totally saying goodbye to Peter, he knows that what they are going to do would cease Peter’s existence or something bad would happen.

      But we don’t see all the development, when Peter accepts the plan, the scene is cut and we are back in the present.

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      • Real1 says

        Yes , let’s see :
        future Walter is giving future Peter the papers of the BBM and the crowbar :

        WALTER: Peter, I was wrong. It’s not too late. You can save both worlds. We can do it all over again. This time, you — you simply need to make a different choice, and should something go wrong, then Olivia will be our fail-safe.

        PETER: Walter, stop. Olivia is dead.

        WALTER: But she won’t be… Not then.

        PETER: The machine? I turned that on fifteen years ago.

        WALTER: And all the time I sat in prison, I – I – I couldn’t figure out where it came from. I knew the pieces were buried millions of years ago, but how did they get there, so deep in the past? But now I understand. I sent them there. The wormhole in Central Park — I sent them back through time. Peter, you can stop the destruction before it occurs!

        PETER: If that’s the case, just don’t send the machine back. Then we’ll never discover it, and I’ll never destroy the other universe.

        WALTER: No, no, no. It doesn’t work that way. I have already done it. Therefore, I have no choice but to do it again.

        PETER: Walter, that doesn’t make any sense.

        WALTER: It does. It’s a paradox. I can’t change what happens because it’s already happened. But you can make a different choice within what happened. I simply need to find a way to bring your consciousness forward to now so that you can witness what will happen if you make the same choice. Peter, for all I know, it could be happening already. Don’t you see? We can fix everything. We can cheat the rules of time.

        PETER: Imagine the repercussions.

        WALTER: There’s no way of telling what the cost might be. But it can’t be worse than this. It can’t be worse than this.

        PETER: What would I need to do?

        Ok , that’s mean this future did happen and did come to pass BUT Walter by magic way he was able to send BBM through time wormhole ( who’s the responsible for this wormhole any way ? ) to let Peter cheating the time and doing a different choice .

        So by future Peter saying what i have to do now .. it will suggest that future Peter entered the BBM one more time to arrive to where red Peter is exist at the moment in the blue BBM .

        by red Peter disappearing .. we have only one BBM in the blue and the BBM in red disappeared . which will suggest that future Peter is still stick at the red BBM and can’t get out from it because only Olivia can switch the BBM off !!!!!

        I got migraine again !

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        • Real1 says

          I will add this :

          I understand the facts. I know that Fringe had reams of information about physiques and about life and about the first people that were close to Bishops and Dunham . And I understand that if they slipped up that they would have a completely reasonable explanation for it.!!

          And I guess to expect the fans to have seen past that is perhaps asking a little bit too much. But when the show was over there and here, we thought about the story line . And all the seasons were just a figment of our imagination. But we held onto writers , and it wasn’t reasonable, and it wasn’t logical, but we did it, so… why didn’t you? it wasn’t any other show . How could you not see that? Now the negative is everywhere. in our house, our job, our bed, and we don’t want to wear fake clothes anymore, and we don’t want to live in our minds, and we don’t want to be with the future . they are taken everything.

          thank you

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        • Dylan says

          The red machine was seen just before the bridge occurred.

          What’s interesting is, shouldn’t the two machines now be occupying the same room?

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    • Dylan says

      They said that his consciousness was the Peter’s from the future, and that’s why he disappeared.

      That doesn’t explain why he no longer exists, as his action shouldn’t have any effect on the time beforehand (he only bridged the worlds, the situation was otherwise entirely the same – so, why disappear?)

      That also doesn’t explain why his body disappeared (as it wasn’t future Peter’s body), or what happened to the original Peter’s body.

      It wasn’t a vision Peter saw, but rather he did a Desmond and his consciousness jumped, and then…I don’t know what happened. It stopped being Desmond-ish.

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  11. CrackPotTheory says

    What people fail to realise is that Peter was always GOING TO FAIL. What we see happening here is that the producers of the show use their artistic license to show Peter ‘disappearing’, but from Peter’s perpective, that’s not what happened. What occurs here is similiar to what happened when Olivia crossed over the second time in “Subject 13″. Because that wormhole in the future MUST HAPPEN for the rest of events to play out Peter is constrained to this future. So if we were to follow Peter’s perspective, somehow he would still end up destroying the red universe even after creating the bridge, even after giving his speech. As a side effect of his meddling, the timeline of the first iteration was adjusted since the future for them is not yet written in stone. This is the universe we the audience are transported to when “Peter disappears”.

    Consequently, Peter’s conscienceness will be forever stuck in a time loop if no one saves him. He will be reliving that day every 15 years opting for a different choice and still failing every time.

    In the timeline we now see as the present, there is a good chance Peter never lived past his illness in both universes. The Observers just ensured that he lived so that he can operate the machine in the other iterations.

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    • jfma says

      I totally agree with that. And even though Peter and alt-Peter both died, Walter and Bell still carried out their experiments bringing a car (or part of it) from the red-verse and starting the destruction process. So the machine is built again, except this time it should be operated by… Olivia?

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      • CrackPotTheory says

        Thank you for your vote of confidence. :) To answer your question, there cannot be a machine on the very first iteration, at least not until it is first built. For this time loop time correction plan to work flawlessly, there must be no machine and no Peter in the “first pass”, that is the “first pass” must not be connected to any time loops in the future. It must be impossible to branch to Peter’s reality.

        It is interesting how the show can literally go anywhere. I think the next thing for the Observers to fix may be the cause of the universe splitting in two to form two daughter universes. All we can assume is that the split took place less than 100 million years ago because the machine is quantum entangled just like the red and blue universes.

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          • CrackPotTheory says

            Thank you for your kind words :). If my theory is true I really can’t say how he will be saved. How can you save someone you can’t even remember? It can probably only happen if Walter and Olivia start asking the right questions, like “where did the bridge come from?” as this is Peter’s “White Tulip”.

            Maybe then Olivia’s “Deja vu” would then kick in and she would cross over and save him?

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            • Nico says

              Ya that will be the real test: can the writers bring Peter back effectively? I have faith but we shall see

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    • alexis says

      “Consequently, Peter’s conscienceness will be forever stuck in a time loop if no one saves him. He will be reliving that day every 15 years opting for a different choice and still failing every time.”

      how can he be saved? can you pull it out of that time loop??

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      • Real1 says

        Because there is no future Olivia to save him from the BBM at the future so he will be stuck all the time .

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    • Dylan says

      Peter never existed. And nothing has changed.

      Wow, what a great, meaningless, twist.

      Nothing has changed!

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  12. Entrada says

    there is so much negativity here, people shoul try to trust the writers, it is wrong to start assuming all these bad outcomes by a single conversation between the Observers, I for one will wait till s4 airs and see what they planned to do, how the observers are gonna get involved in this, you start comparing Frine to other scifi show, but you forget that there are many special things about Fringe, The Observers for one, we don’t even know how are they gonna play out in this wwhole thing, so hang on a bit, I love theorizing, but starting to critisize s4 before it airs? that’s Just wrong!

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    • JoA says

      I agree, we should all keep an open mind and wait for everything to better explained. I hope the writers will do this as there is still some confusion among fans. Also, Peter was a much loved character and to say he’s basically a non-entity when so much was riding on him is akin to mourning a death. It takes time to go through steps of denial, anger, acceptance, and hope that we will see the bigger picture. Knee-jerk response of “WTFigglesworth” was what they were after and they got it. :)

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      • Schwakamole says

        Agreed! The producers have said, “Let’s put it this way. Josh has a contract for season 4.” Which means he is not off the show and they are definitely going to start explaining things. And they have also said that they will explain the observers but it will be a few seasons away, possibly the very last season of the show. So many good things to still learn and find out.

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    • Dylan says

      It’s not as if we haven’t mentioned season 4. But we’re discussing the episode as it stands right now, on its own.

      And especially how the producer’s explanation in this video doesn’t work. It’s only fair we discuss that.

      Note: when did we criticize season 4?

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  13. Zhaan says

    I have a strange thought about the Observers: maybe they came from an extint Universe, a Primeval Universe created in the beginning of Time witch the others came from. That is why they are so obsessed with fixing Time mistakes. As the last survivers of this PanUniverse, they regard themselves as «guardians», trying to solve every inconsistency they could consider perilous and dangerous to all living beings.

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  14. FlashWriter says

    I need to read all the comments. They’re so many of them but most of them point in one direction: people are really confused. Now comes an “explanation” video. Somewhere along the line these writers have forgotten that they’re telling a story. I touched on this before. I contend that if you have to make a video to explain events then you have completely screwed up. It’s like a comedian explaining a joke. The first word of the explanation is an admission that the script (or the joke) just didn’t do the job. The idea may have been interesting. The execution of the script by the cast was first rate (as always). The script itself was terrible. It was unsatisfying. It was disappointing. It was a disaster and no amount of explanation is going to fix this. I just don’t know what these guys thought they were doing.

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    • JoA says

      The bulk of the information we may have needed to fully understand the outcome may be on the editing room floor. They cut several minutes out to make the 40+ minute time frame. Wasn’t the ep originally 60 minutes? Probably the deleted scenes will give better context. I hope in the DVD release that they restore all of the footage to make up for this confusion that seems to be going on.

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      • FlashWriter says

        Hi JoA,
        Nope. TV scripts for these shows are written with the idea of “around” 43 minutes. That said, during the shoot, scenes run longer than originally anticipated, pages get rewritten, people get bright ideas and they get inserted. In the end you get a director’s cut that always seems 3 to 5 minutes too long. So you trim. If you’re good you trim without killing the story. (For a post-graduate class on this check out ‘Battlestar Galactica’. Ron Moore did this ep-by-ep Podcast thing that was just outstanding regarding this very subject. Don’t know if you can still get it or not.) Anyway, they tried to explain the whole thing in one, hyper-quick scene. They skipped over an amazing amount of material just to spit out some kind of an explanation. The whole thing seems to have been done for no more than the shock value at the very end. To me, it seemed as if they were going for a “Who Shot JR?” moment and not much else. Wow, Olivia got capped and Peter got uncreated. Nobody really seems to be able to explain Peter (or much else, for that matter). I just think it was an unbelievably clumsy job and it can be traced right back to the guy typing on the word processor.

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        • Schwakamole says

          I agree that they were very constrained by the 43 minute time of the episode. Why they didn’t lobby for more time from the PTB, I will never know. And, let’s face it. Time travel stuff can be very mind-bending for even super geeky sci-fi fans. The average veiwer will usually not get it at all. But the fact that they purposely crunched it all into the last 10 minutes was to get us all eagerly anticipating season 4 where they will surely explain it all. Hopefully it worked and doesn’t backfire with everyone deciding it’s too confusing and not showing up for next year. But I don’t think that will apply to anyone who is on this site. Only to those who were probably casual viewer in the first place.

          And for those who are getting WAY caught up in the science, I’d say calm down. This is entertainment TV. Half of what they talk about on Fringe can’t be proved with science. Why make this the defining moment that you suddenly hate the show?! And other sci-fi shows are the same way. I love the original Star Trek series but don’t hold it up to an electron microscope when it comes to the science – that would be laughable. It’s entertainment people – not a text book.

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          • Dylan says

            They’ve chucked a tonne of story ideas in this second half into the mix (consider every cliffhanger, and new mystery). It’s bizarre for a show in Fringe’s position to act like it’s just started and has years of existence left.

            And there is a definitive difference between science-fiction and fantasy-science (not as a joint-genre, but as a sub-genre). The moment Fringe introduced “soul magnets”, and basically proved the existence of souls (somehow, and in a very Harry Potter kind of way), they crossed into the latter.

            The problem is that everything before that has been science-fiction. It’s jarring for its audience, and will shed viewers.

            It may be entertainment, by a high-concept drama requires logic in order to remain as one.

            They can’t afford to be playing around like this. They don’t have a full season assured for next year.

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      • Dylan says

        You don’t eliminate from your final product anything that is integral to it. There’s no rule for that in film editing, it’s just common sense.

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  15. Filp says

    other thing I was thinking, the pieces o fthe Machine were not find all over the world ??? If I remember correctly … so walter opened how many worm holes in different locatios to send each piece ?

    Or this doesnt work that way and I am out of my mind ? please help me.
    thank you

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    • g33k says

      They could send through the pieces of the machine AND the craft or something to drop it off through one wormhole. We’ve the Mars robots for real, why not automate some sort of machine piece planting automaton you can send through a wormhole. :-)
      I hope they do that actually, I don’t think we need to see them trudging through jungle to plant pieces of the machine around.

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    • Dylan says

      If Walter is responsible and company are responsible, not for the pieces, but for the manuscripts and the cases – then why are so many of them detailed in a language that doesn’t and never before existed?

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      • g33k says

        Maybe its actually a code that Walter made for himself so that he knew he’d be able to decode it. Wasn’t it the episode of August where the observer’s notebook was left behind and Walter decoded the hydrogen atom symbols or something and was able to find out what the Observer was telling him? I could see them using that callback to explain this.

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  16. Geoff says

    I’ve thought about it. Poofing Peter out of existence doesn’t make sense. There is nothing he has done that would have caused that. Nothing. If Peter never existed, they wouldn’t even be in that room together. If you get rid of the cause (even though there is nothing in there that would get rid of Peter…they didn’t change anything prior to his birth), you get rid of the effects.

    So that means no Altlivia in the room, no machine, no busted up universes (no crossings). If you want to erase him from existence, at least prevent Walter from going to the Enchantment Under the Sea dance.

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    • Nico says

      Well it’s because he reverted to his old timeline that was collapsed when the new timeline was created by him. The machine made it to that point in the new timeline and now Peter us stuck in the old one. So the trick will be getting him back (forth?) into the new one he created

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      • Geoff says

        If they bring him back (and not in a weird alt-Peter way where no one remembers him), I can live with it as fiction that doesn’t make sense. He still didn’t do anything to prevent his existence in that timeline.

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        • Nico says

          Exactly, I’m definitely with you on that Geoff, I think the Peter we know will be the one who returns and they have artistic license to play with fringe science ideas anyway

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  17. Schoko says

    Another thing I’m wondering…Ok. Future Peter exists in 2026, only 15 years into the future. That’s not that far into the future, so if there is a Future Peter in a future timeline in 2026, where is that Peter in 2011? Like I said, 15 years isn’t that far away, so shouldn’t “future Peter” be somewhere in 2011? Even in this timeline? Or all timelines? As far as I can tell, only pieces of the BBM went into the past, not a person, so 2011-2026 Peter should be around… As far as the future, Peter is(?) there (or isn’t, I just don’t know)
    Sorry, I was going somewhere with this when I started, and just plain confused myself.

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    • Geoff says

      You are trying to say what I have also said. Peter did nothing to poof himself out of existence because he made a change in 2011, not before he was born. This is a serious flaw in their logic imho, but I’m willing to overlook it if the stories are good.

      I doubt very seriously they’ll get rid of Peter’s character (and again I mean the Peter we know, not some version that isn’t the love interest of Olivia, the abducted son, the father of Altlivia’s baby).

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      • Dylan says

        That’s probably the most fundamental issue – beyond anything else, with his disappearance.

        I couldn’t overlook it. Most plot holes arise as the result of having different writing teams for each episode of the season, but there is no excuse for the showrunners to introduce such a big and integral idea and not do their research to see if it fits at all.

        If they don’t explain it straight away in season 4, I’m going to find it difficult to watch what unfolds onscreen, since I’ll be distracted by how none of it matters because it all comes from a giant gaping plot hole.

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  18. Darth Kate says

    Why doesn’t everyone just chill and wait for season 4? An explanation will eventually come, and if it sucks THEN we can all bitch about it. Until then there’s really no point in flipping out.

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  19. JoA says

    How about this idea…It seems that when Peter gets into the machine that the machine reads his emotional state which effects what will happen. It is also probably capable of sending consciousness back and forth between timelines. If future Peter got into the machine with subconscious mindset that he wished he no longer existed after they were finished with changing the past (with him assuming he would be returning to a world without Olivia and the world was still dying anyway), the could it be possible the machine in the future interacted with the now single machine in the new bridge and wiped Peter clean out of existence? When the machine rebooted was it Future Peter that was doing it or our Peter? If it was future Peter (because he did say that Olivia was alive), then maybe Peter is gone because of the mindset of Future Peter?

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    • Dylan says

      Since it’s all just dealing with the consciousness, why did the body disappear? Why didn’t his consciousness just vanish?

      Doesn’t make sense.

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  20. Sziogo says

    The vanishing could have dense if u c Peter as a component of the device, Once u don’t need to’ build it in the future even peter stop to’ exist along with the BBM

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  21. Dylan says

    I just realized that Walter’s paradox idea made no sense.

    He could have tried to change it, because he would have no way of knowing for sure if they really are the first people – or if a species actually did exist those millions of years ago and they aren’t modern-day humans.

    Walter could still be completely wrong. That would occur if the wormhole just destroys everything that’s put in it straight away – and never successfully deposits anything on the other side of it.

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    • Dylan says

      Just clarifying.

      My point is that Walter could be wrong and the paradox isn’t possible – the wormhole cannot be manipulated as such, or anything that passes through it is destroyed, and that the machine is still from the past where it would created by another species.

      There’s no way Walter could know for sure that the paradox is the true answer, and the fact that he wasn’t even going to try and see if he could change it is strange.

      Why would you not even try?

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  22. Dylan says

    You know what doesn’t make sense;

    Throughout the series the observers have gone on about how important Peter is, and in ‘Peter’ they go on about how “the boy is important” and how important the moment Walternate discovers how to cure him is.

    Now, since all this occurred because September screwed up while observing and killed the moment, why would Peter be of any importance if all he was supposed to do (his purpose) was to not exist?

    It doesn’t fit.

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  23. Dylan says

    Oh my gosh. I don’t believe it.

    This appears to be the very first page, busy with posts, that has no obsessive character-arguments. Wowza!

    Could it be that they’ve actually stopped? Screw the Peter twist – this is AMAZING!

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  24. loveit says

    This is perhaps off topic but I saw an interview of the producers once where they indicated season 1 was basic background, season 2 was about Walter, season 3 about Olivia and season 4 would be about Peter. Perhaps there will be more focus on Peter – where he is and how he got there as opposed to how/if they notice him missing…?

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  25. Blah... says

    This Finale could have ended with the explosion of some worlds…
    It would be as difficult to understand as the other but Fringe would have ended, so they wouldnt have the hard work to explain it in another season just for more shame…

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    • Dylan says

      I wish we’d actually gotten to see the full power of the machine on the other side, and have Walternate come over to plea – just to get a real sense of destruction.

      I felt kind of cheated that we just skipped it all…

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  26. Joey says

    Peter never existed…. Walter never crossed over to another universe to save him… that universe never started to rip apart…. there was never a war between the two universes…. the cortexifan trials never happened…. Olivia has no special abilities…. Fringe Division was never created…. the machine was never built…. the bridge between the universes was not created….

    I could go on forever, but hopefully I’ve made my point. If Peter never existed, then neither did this entire show.

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    • Dylan says

      Others say that things occurred differently, without Peter, yet we still end up at the same place.

      If true, that sounds like course correcting to me; different means, same ends.

      Perhaps the universes are destined to be destroyed, and the Observers to be wrong…

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  27. Joe Kerr says

    The Observers are likely the key to all this – they can time travel and jump between universes at will. The technology of The Machines resemble the probe that the Observers were waiting for to come out of the Earth is Season 1. Then there was the episode involving the child who seemed to be a young Observer and in a phone conversation it was indicated they had found at least 1 other such child. Im wondering if Walter and Bell are responsible for the creation of the Observers and the memory of that is one of the memories Bell removed from Walters brain. The Observers may have been from our Universe and built the machine some time after 2026 as our universe was finally imploding and took the parts back to the point where each Walter would send the parts back to their own pasts in the Dino days.

    It would be fun if September and December while talking about everyone inside the bridge not remembering Peter, turned around to see Peter now dressed as an Observer and say “Im tired and hungry after all this, and I need a break, you guys up for some extra spicy hot wings?” After the death of August the Observers are one man down – assuming there are 12 of them – the 12 Apostles?

    I suspect they purposely ended the season this way to stimulate discussion over the summer and keep the remaining fan base engaged and hopefully get some people who watched Season 1 but fell away to catch up with Season 2 and 3 and get back on board.

    There is a good site that figures out time travel movies and determines possible explanations – like the Final Countdown, Trek movies, Terminator, 12 Monkeys, ect. Of course you have at least 2 universes which complicates things. Real mind bending stuff.

    http://www.mjyoung.net/time/index.htm

    http://www.mjyoung.net/time/timeprim.html

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  28. Rane says

    Okay.. i’m sure we can all agree that a person traveling back in time and meeting up with their former self would put an end to the existence of that person on that plane of existence (not another dimention, the SAME person, SAME dimention, Different point in TIME/Space) thats why peter is gone. and just like no one would remember World War 2 if someone went back to kill hitler before he came into power, no one now remembers peter… its not THAT hard… what is hard is what will happen now that peter no longer exists. what exactly will walter and walternate remember about themselves ? with the son that was taken from the other universe no longer in effect. would they have crossed over at all ? in my opinion this may be the end of the current existing universes (BOTH) maybe a new story will come from here. or will it be an end to fringe (on network tv atleast haha)

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    • Rane says

      nevermind, i’m skipping down to see we all do agree and that some very cool sub/alternate/future plot lines have begun to emerge reading further down this board.. thank goodness..

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  29. JD says

    All of this talk is stupid. The machine can do whatever the hell it wants, its a fictional device. Any event can be easily explained as its all fiction. There is no such thing as a plot hole or ‘impossible’ or unexplainable paradox in a show like this.

    Its clear they left it very confusing and ambiguous deliberately and will explain further in the next season. They can explain it in probably an infinite number of ways, because its a fictional show.

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  30. kjodrisc says

    I have an idea about peter disappearing that I don’t think I saw mentioned this exact way, I read through the whole page but could have missed it. It sounds fine in my head so I’ll try and describe what I mean as best I can. Anyway it’s just my take on what might have occurred so here goes.

    Since we know the Observers can travel through time, It may be that they want to make sure that the machine cannot be operated again to maintain the correct timeline for them, so what was to stop them going back to when Peter was young and making sure Walter & Walternate didn’t find a cure for his illness. Or that he is not rescued from the water by the Observer.

    This would mean that Peter died as a child and thus no-one would know of him except for Walter & Walternate and their memory of him would only be as their young son and not as the Peter Bishop we know. Would this not provide an explanation of why he just ceased to exist in this timeline? It might also leave it open for the observers to interfere again in season 4 and make it so that Peter did exist the way we know him but not with a destiny to operate the machine.

    I’m aware that this creates a big paradox and probably has plenty of holes but just wanted to add my own two cents anyway. If we’re talking about the many worlds theory then maybe it might fit.

    I think I’ve sufficiently confused myself at this point but I’d be interested to see other people’s opinion on this.

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  31. Tash says

    Hey i dont really get whats goingmon with the whole dissapering thing but i was reading a book the other day (i think it was darren shan) but the whole idea thing was that if you went back in time and killed say hitler when he was like a baby someone else would kinda fill his shoes and they would kinda have no choice because thats the way the world was meant to go so exactly the same events would happen just with a different person on the cover. So maybe when he stopped excisting someone else replaced him and then exactly the same things happened. Because without the whole reason of crossing across none of fringe would happen. Cos i am royally confuddled i mean the video was meant to explain it a bit but they just went “he went into the future and stopped excisting”????!!!! I thought you stopped excisting if you went into the past and killed your grandad. Why would you wanna kill your granda anyhows? I like my grandad. But i still dont get why he dont excist. Although the machine is so magical and stuff it probably can do whatever the hell it wants. But non of it could happen if there wasn’t a peter there. So how did it??? God me head hurts!!! Its just a big circle going round & round.

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  32. No More says

    This finale was embarassing to watch.

    If Peter never existed, then Walter would have never crossed over into the alternate universe, therefore none of the first 3 seasons would have existed.

    It’s pretty simple. This show has jumped the shark.

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    • Tash says

      Maybe hes just gonna pop up and say “joke!! I just reised i can make myself go invisable!” nah i no what you mean,they were doing well and then they cocked it up at the end. If they had changed the last half of the episode itstead of that lame “oh we were the first people cos we jumped down a wormhole” and the rather half baked ending where he just dissapears for no good reason. If he had died, fine, but then at least ue exsisted in the first place. What the hell is going on between whats flesh and whats fantasy.

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