Fringe: The Blame Game – Peter, Altlivia and the Sideways Shuffle

Today’s Fringe poll goes deep undercover and right to the heart of the matter, as we ask – who is more to blame for the moment that shattered a million hearts?

Who do you blame the most for the subsequent hurt and pain that will no doubt follow their horizontal shuffle – Peter for not knowing his woman like he should in spite of the nagging doubts screaming from deep within, or Altlivia for going against her morals and betraying Frank?

Which of these two intertwined souls are you the most disappointed or angry with?

Feel free to add your vote to the poll below.

Who do you blame the most?

View Results

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  1. runpaceyrun says

    I dont think Altlivia was going to take it this far but good old Newton….well he pushed the right buttons ….. he is so good at psychological mind games. Even though he is no longer with us (for now) he still had an effect Altlivias life with his last little speech – he is so clever. He pushed her to where she wasnt going to go. He messed with her head…….and now unfortunatley Peter is going to suffer the consequences when he finds out. It will be pain, angst and regret all round!

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  2. Alex says

    Both equally (I’m actually finding it easier to sympathise with AltLiv)! But also Newton!

    Peter had suspected earlier in the cafeteria and he went ahead even though he knew something wasn’t right. This was probably irresponsible. I feel sorry that OurLivia has to come home to this : (

    Forgive me, but I felt sooooo sorry for Altliv in that last scene.

    That’s right, I said it.

    Does nobody else agree? Like Ourlivia, she’s in a position where she is solely responsible for saving her world. That moment where she has a mini-freakout in the bathroom after their date was just a little nugget to show that she is actually uncomfortable about Peter’s accidental sex hint, she couldn’t even wait to get home to freak out. And Newton taunting her put her under so much pressure. You can tell their conversations when he’s suggesting she sleeps with Peter she’s uncomfortable with it – and he convinces her that if she doesn’t she’s a complete failure for the cause.

    She’s just trying to save her universe and family, but in the process she has to basically prostitute herself to the enemy and betray the man she really loves in order to save him. That would be scary for anyone, right? It seems like she and Frank really had something great going. We probably won’t see it on the show, but I bet she bawled her eyes out the next morning. I know I would.

    I don’t think the writers are humanising her as much as they could be, but its still early days. But I still think a lot of P/O fans are just dismissing her as a B**ch/S**t without considering that she’s all alone here and the pressure she’s under to save her world. They may not be showing it blatantly, but I bet she’s scared to death of this place. I don’t know how she’s going to manage without Newton (even if he was the sadistic psycho who pressured her in the first place!)

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    • Kit says

      I completely agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here. I completely empathize with Fauxlivia, and I’m hoping they continue to up the humanization on her.

      I mean, as you said, she’s doing her job. She’s like Olivia in that way; they’re both professionals above all else, at any cost. Olivia in a different way, but still. Olivia doesn’t think twice about getting the job done — I mean, look at her chasing John and sending his car flying in the pilot. She saw that it was necessary, and she did it, even if there were personal stakes. Fauxlivia hasn’t done any killing of boyfriends, but she’s had to hurt herself to get the job done (and save her universe, as she really believes she’s doing).

      Oddly enough, even though I’m a P/O shipper myself, Fauxlivia’s fast becoming one of my favorite characters.

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      • Alex says

        I think the writers’ intention may have been to humanise Altliv through showing us OurLivia with her identity, but i don’t think it works because all we end up seeing is a confused OurLiv. But if you look at it, Altliv’s “identity” is shown to be funny and compassionate, with great relationships with her team, her mother and with her boyfriend. She’s a lot happier than OurLivia. Maybe that’s how their TRYING to humanise her so far.

        But I don’t think hardcore P/O shippers will be convinced she’s human until we see her at her weakest. Instead of Newton telling us she has trouble sleeping at night because of her fears, we need to SEE that. I’m trying really hard to like her regardless and see her as her own character rather than a comparison to OurLivia. But it’s hard to judge who she is when 90% of what we see is either OurLivia thinking she’s her or Altlivia pretending to be someone else.

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        • Xindilini says

          They did a good job showing what her life and relationships in one episode and showed her worry about things in another. It was nicely done.

          I also picked up on her unease during their restaurant conversation.

          But I already started to feel empathy for her in The Box.

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        • BklynBetty says

          “I think the writers’ intention may have been to humanise Altliv through showing us OurLivia with her identity, but i don’t think it works because all we end up seeing is a confused OurLiv.”

          I think you may be right about the intent of the writers – but, Torv is so amazing at portraying nuance that its Not possible to separate what is supposed to be Altlivia vs what is inherently Ourlivia – other than the obvious, the hallucinations. Maybe the jokes she makes with her colleagues are the same that Altlivia would make – but would the tone be exactly the same? It’s just not possible to know. Does Olivia’s ’empathy’ just color enough her ‘interpretation’ of who Altlivia is? Maybe Altlivia also has this quality – but, unless it is shown independently – we will likely attribute it to Olivia – because 1. we KNOW that is a characteristic that she has and 2. We are actively looking for her in her Altliv persona.

          If it wouldn’t slow the storyline momentum – i would like to see Altliv Over Here working on a case where she has no conflict of interest. One, perhaps not so directly related to Over There – so we could witness some actual teamwork and watch her genuine inclination to solve a case.

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        • Anna says

          As a hardcore P/O shipper, I have to say I’m really liking AltLiv. When we first met her it was emphasized how different she was from Ourlivia. But now we’re seeing they’re actually quite similar- both have very important jobs that relate to their ‘saving the world’. AltLiv might be working for the wrong people, but she’s fighting for what she believes is right.

          I feel for her because it’s obvious she isn’t enjoying this. She might not have minded lying to these people at first, but now it’s getting to her. She slept with Peter because it was part of her mission. And honestly I don’t think it was something she wanted to do, but it was the only thing she thought of.

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  3. jophan says

    I blame Newton explicitly, but even without his input, it was going to happen sooner or later unless Peter really figured things out and had her arrested.

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  4. Karo says

    Peter, for going along with it, even though Olivia (in his head it’s Olivia) is clearly not acting like her normal self. He should at least sense that something is off and talk to her about it before … ya know.

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  5. Dana Hale says

    How fitting that this scene was juxtaposed with Newton committing suicide…Peter is committing P/O relationship suicide.

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    • fringefan2009 says

      Wow, I like your comparison. Peter is committing P/O relationship suicide. That pretty much sums it up.

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  6. Catherine says

    Who’s to blame for the “moment that has shattered a million hearts,” and added an extra layer of nail biting and possibly richer, more colorful expletives yelled at the tv screen? Duh, the writers of Fringe. I’m liking it myself. I’m sure Olivia and Peter will work things out….before the series ends. 😀

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    • LMH says

      Ditto. As much as I loved their growing friendship and almost romance, the tragedy that was the deed just upped the ante that much higher. Isn’t that the goal of the writers? How many wrenches can we throw into this thing?! It was juicy in the shock value department having to deal with Newton’s death throws and Fringe transforming into Cringe simultaneously. The story got far more emotionally complicated for those two characters and they had to be separated somehow otherwise our heroes would get too comfy with each other. Happy endings are not allowed yet.

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  7. annon says

    Yes, Catherine. Who’s to blame – “the writers”. It should of been one of the options. Their the ones that thought this storyarc was going to interesting.

    I said altOlivia, because she controlled the situation. Yes, she was egged on by Newton, but she didn’t have to go there. Altolivia was the one who phoned Peter and asked him to come over. He wasn’t even with her initially. When Peter hinted at it at the beginning, he could see that she was uncomfortable, told her he had a great time and said he had to go home to Walter, to defuse the situation.

    Should Peter not have gone there with altOlivia? He loves the girl and thinks this is his Olivia. He has noticed changes and he is trying to process how he feels about that, but he still loves her and he hasn’t connected the dots yet.

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    • Jodie says

      “Altolivia was the one who phoned Peter and asked him to come over. He wasn’t even with her initially. When Peter hinted at it at the beginning, he could see that she was uncomfortable, told her he had a great time and said he had to go home to Walter, to defuse the situation.”

      Thank you, finally someone who saw that scene the way the writer’s actually wrote it. Peter was acting like a gentleman. Oh, and by the way, adults talk about sex. I voted for neither. Why? Because Altivia was doing what she volunteered to do when she accepted her mission. She’s supposed to be Olivia. And for Peter, all we know is that he thinks that he is with Olivia.

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      • jade86 says

        I voted for neither too! 😉 I can’t blame Peter and Bolivia. They’re both victims of Walternate’s plane. Peter is a human being with feelings, not a robot. He can’t be hated because he doesn’t realize he’s with a woman identical to the Olivia he loves. I can’t imagine how he will feel when he’ll realize the deception :(

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    • Azazel says

      Exactly right. Think about it. Peter is from the red universe. Altlivia is from the red universe (I even thought for a second that Walter could see her shining through during his little acid trip). They belong together. And the juxtaposition of the shape shifters with the Olivias, they both are in super complicated situations and they are monsters outside of their universes.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Peter saves Altlivia in the end…after all he said that he noticed all the little differences and that he liked them.

      And the writers haven’t even shown us the relationship problems Olivia must be having in the Red Universe…does her sleeping with Altlivia’s husband count as cheating? Is it really cheating if its in another universe?

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      • Alex says

        Haha, good point! Maybe it wouldn’t be considered cheating because OurLiv actually believes she’s Altliv, whereas Altliv knows better. But you’re right, the writers have been avoiding that story arc by interrupting Frank and Liv’s sex life with lots of very convenient smallpox outbreaks!

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  8. mlj102 says

    Certainly they’re both responsible and at fault for what happened — they both had a part in that. But when all is said and done, I’m more mad at Peter and I place the larger part of the blame on him.

    With alternate Olivia, I’m more disappointed than anything. I’m disappointed that she was ultimately willing to compromise her values, to sacrifice her standards, and to forsake the things and people that are most important to her for a relationship that isn’t real. For me, personally, that just isn’t right and I can’t support that decision. But I acknowledge that she’s in a tough situation and she feels that it was necessary to her mission. I can understand it, even though I don’t agree with it and it makes me less thrilled with her character.

    But Peter doesn’t have that excuse. Sure, people will point out various excuses to justify what he did, but I have yet to see an excuse that makes me feel even partially forgiving towards him.

    Some will say that he has the excuse that he doesn’t know it’s not Olivia. And if that’s the case, then I don’t necessarily blame him for what he did… but I do blame him for not knowing. He should know. He knows Olivia perhaps better than anyone else in her life, and despite being in love or being distracted, it should be clear that this person he’s with isn’t Olivia.

    And he’s all but admitted that he knows, or at least has very strong suspicions that she isn’t Olivia. How could he take that step in a relationship if there’s even the slightest doubt or smallest question that she might not be the Olivia he knows? I mean, he said flat out that it’s almost like she’s a completely different person. If he can say that, but still can’t put the pieces together, then he’s completely lame and I have lost all faith I ever had in him. It isn’t fair to Olivia or their relationship and all they’ve been through together if he’s blatantly ignoring all the warning signs and knowingly refusing to admit that he knows it isn’t her. I see that as a huge betrayal to her and it really cheapens his character for me.

    The other excuse would be that he’s simply playing along in order to deceive alternate Olivia and make her think she’s got his trust. But I don’t feel that is a justifiable reason to do what they did. There are still plenty of ways he could convince her that he believes she is who she pretends to be that don’t involve taking that step in the relationship. If he knows she isn’t Olivia, then he should not be pursuing that kind of a relationship with her. He and Olivia may have been in the very early stages where they left off, but it was enough of a mutual understanding that he should feel some amount of loyalty towards her. And even if they hadn’t gotten to that point in their own relationship, it’s been shown quite clearly that he has feelings for Olivia, and I can’t accept that he would be willing to just move on and forget her that quickly. I think that’s insulting and it would be a huge slap in the face to the relationship they have.

    Sure, the writers are ultimately the ones to blame, if you want to look outside of the story. But it is what it is, in which case, we have to analyze it for what it is. And when I do that, I come to the conclusion that Peter is ultimately the one I blame the most. Yes, Newton was partially responsible, and yes, alternate Olivia was also at fault. But Peter carries the largest responsibility from my perspective.

    No matter how I look at it, I can’t justify him going along with it. And that makes me really upset. Sure, we can say it’s alternate Olivia’s fault for initiating it, but Peter could have stopped it at any time. But he didn’t. It makes me feel like he never really cared for Olivia at all. And that bothers me because that directly contradicts everything else we’ve seen prior to this season. It contradicts the Peter that Olivia is seeing on the other side. It’s going to take a lot for Peter to redeem himself in my eyes.

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    • Becca says

      Exactly. To say that the writers are to blame? Yes, they’re to blame for everything that happens, they write the show. How can Peter be so perceptive and now there are all kinds of convenient excuses for him? Bolivia was doing her job, she’s alone in enemy territory and just like Olivia she’ll do whatever it takes to have it done. Olivia doesn’t have to compromise herself on the other side (so far) because she’s unaware of her situation. Bolivia isn’t.

      If Peter knows and he is just playing along to deceive Bolivia that will be even worse because he would fully know what he’s doing. When Walter and Olivia knew that Peter was on the other side, they immediately thought of a plan to go there and bring him back, Peter instead has sex with Bolivia. Fantastic plan.

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      • Catherine says

        Clearly, I don’t take this idea of “whose to blame” very seriously. :) From the story/character point of view, though, I don’t blame anyone really. Bolivia is trying to save her universe/existence. Think of Mom, Charlie, Lincoln…and yes, even Frank, back there…getting ready to explode or whatever happens when the universes collide. I’m guessing “explode,” because Fringe really likes to explode things. (Sorry, little dude from “The Box.” That was just…wrong. :D) Besides, the girl (Bolivia) has struggled with the self betrayal she probably committed with Peter at the end of “Do Shapeshifters…”

        Peter, on the other hand, is no more “to blame” than Mrs. Van Horn or the Ray guy’s wife and kid, or Olivia and Charlie’s wife for not “knowing” that, as Mrs. Van Horn put it, “you were gone.” As Charlie told Lincoln, “You can not tell those two apart,” unless you’re watching a tv show and watched the switch last spring. 😀 Peter knew something was up with Walter and Olivia last spring when they were keeping the truth from him about his identity- remember their exchanging uncomfortable glances and having conversations about “Pandora’s Box,” when Peter wasn’t within earshot- BUT it took him awhile to put all the pieces together.

        Newton is/was :( a cool machine. I have been tempted to cuss my computer many times, but at the end of the day, it just isn’t going to be any smarter than its operator/programs. I kinda wonder if Bell may have programmed the shapeshifters to “feel” human empathy on purpose as a glitch? Much like he “toyed” with Over There’s Fringe Division weaponry.
        I loved Bolivia’s curt response to Newton, “There’s lots of machines over here. I’ll befriend a vaccum cleaner.”

        Walternate, when all are put under the microscope, is the character most responsible (He’s pulling everyone’s strings- Walternate and his great, big laboratory.) Still, even he is understandable. It’s his job to save his world. Yep, he’s got a little vengeful streak going there. “What’s your problem, Walternate? So somebody stole your only child and destroyed your world…get over yourself!” Yeah, right. 😀 Go easy on Walternate..maybe he lost his coffee connection. I get testy without my morning coffee too.

        In the end analysis, I don’t find “perfect” characters interesting at all. I’m not perfect enough to relate to them. I can’t laugh, cry, or cringe with a character who isn’t at least as fallible as I am. Heck, even Superman had his cryptonite.

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        • mlj102 says

          “Peter, on the other hand, is no more “to blame” than Mrs. Van Horn or the Ray guy’s wife and kid, or Olivia and Charlie’s wife for not “knowing” that, as Mrs. Van Horn put it, “you were gone.” As Charlie told Lincoln, “You can not tell those two apart,” unless you’re watching a tv show and watched the switch last spring.”

          I disagree. The only instance of those you mentioned that is somewhat similar is Olivia not realizing when Charlie was replaced with a shapeshifter. But with Mrs. Van Horn, Ray’s wife, and Charlie’s wife, there’s a big factor that excuses them from not realizing the switch. That reason is that they have absolutely no idea that another universe exists. They have no reason to think that their significant other isn’t who they appear to be. No one comes home to their spouse and notices a few subtle differences and thinks “Maybe this isn’t my spouse, but it’s really an evil shapeshifter from another reality who has replaced the person I love.” I wouldn’t expect any of them to consider that possibility. There’s no reason to.

          But Peter doesn’t have that excuse. He knows about the other side. He even interacted directly with alternate Olivia. And I don’t think that we can see the difference only because we’re from the outside looking in on a TV show. The differences are definitely present. Alternate Olivia is dressing differently. She has different mannerisms. She has not shown the same devotion to their work and the same involvement in the cases as our Olivia. She is pursuing Peter far more aggressively than Olivia would. She’s more relaxed (despite the tension from the mission she’s on). She smiles more often. She’s not as sincere in the way she says things and confides to Peter. Alternate Olivia has been unable to duplicate those fundamental aspects of our Olivia, and it’s noticeable to anyone. As I’ve said before, Peter, who knows Olivia so well, despite being in love and despite being distracted by other things, should see a difference. He should know.

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          • says

            You are so right. No excuses for Peter. Personally, I think he knows this is not Olivia. So I voted to blame him. I also love whoever came up with the new name for the show “Cringe”! perfect!

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      • Anya says

        Yes, Peter is a guy who has been living with his father for the past two years. Charming as he is, I don’t think he’s had any romantic relationships since we was recruited by Olivia. (Krista was a maybe, but that went nowhere.)

        I blame Newton. I feel bad that Altliv was pretty much bullied into doing the deed.

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  9. annon says

    I think Peter doesn’t know. He thinks this is his Olivia and I think that is the story that the writers will tell further down the track. We as an audience are privvy to the information of the switch, but Peter and the team aren’t. Why would they even comprehend a switch happened, they wouldn’t. They have no reason too. Olivia switched for a shapeshifter maybe, because they know that that has happened before.

    Peter will be like Mrs Van Horn. Peter loves Olivia. He came back over here for her and is continuing with a relationship with her.

    AltOlivia didn’t have to sleep with Peter. Newton planted the seed in her head about the fact that Peter knew it wasn’t her and that the only way to stop that was to sleep with him. Newton got inside her head, but she could of found otherways to convince him. Newton wanted to push he over the edge and he suceeded and she’s taken Peter with her. Peter is going to be devastated when he finds out.

    However, I think when we see 3.06, it will give us a better idea in which direction the writers are going to go with Peter’s angle in this. Well, I hope so. At the moment, it could go in a few different directions. The writers wanted to shake things up this season and they have done that. However, I don’t like the fact that they have destroyed a character in the meantime to do it. I’m not sure it was necessary.

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  10. number six says

    From a romantic point of view, I see it like this, either recognizing Altlivia’s identity is a sign of true love or just the opposite.

    – The wives of those shapeshifters loved their husbands. Charlie’s wife loved him, but she didn’t notice the changes. Olivia loved Charlie and she didn’t notice anything. All of them loved and were deceived. As far as I’ve seen, Patricia was far from stupid and she knew her husband better than anyone. And yet, she continued living happily with an impersonator. If this is the case, Peter is very much in love with Olivia and therefore he’s more deceived than anyone.

    – If not recognizing the impersonator is a sign of lack of true love, then Peter, Patricia, Olivia, Ray’s wife, etc… didn’t care as much for their loved ones, as they thought.

    In both cases, nobody knows consciously the true identity, but I’d put more blame on Peter if he fell into the second category for obvious reasons.

    From an unromantic point of view, I think it’s simple and it goes beyond Altlivia cheating on Frank. She made a conscious decision to deceive a man and make him think she’s the person he’s in love with, to have sex with him. He’s not aware of her true identity, so he’s not consenting to have sex with this particular Olivia, so the words rape and abuse come to mind. I expect the writers to gloss over this particular issue, because, you know, this is supposedly a male fantasy, but from my point of view, it doesn’t matter if it’s a male or a female, if there is no consent, it’s abuse. Altlivia is more to blame than anyone.

    I’m not considering the possibility, that Peter knows her true identity, because the poll doesn’t, either.

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    • Wut says

      I agree with you (re: lack of consent) If Olivia had been seduced and Peter had been the impostor, I do not think we would have had questioned this: it would have been more obvious to us (audience) that Olivia had been abused, not seduced But the gender switch here makes it feel like that, a male fantasy
      Still, I am struggling to justify Peter, and how much consent is missing here. It’s like he took his chances, he admitted something’s wrong with Olivia, and consented anyway. He’ll live ¬¬.

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  11. Laura says

    “Forgive me, but I felt sooooo sorry for Altliv in that last scene. ”
    You ‘re so right Alex, it even looked like a “sacrifice” to me.
    I didn’t like Altlivia right from the start, maybe because I was (wrongly) expecting someone more similiar to our Liv. But now, its’ quite clear she kind of underestimated her mission, and Newton’s words didn’t help. I think everybody has his own limits that no one wants to cross, and apparently Altliv has no problems in shooting a poor guy ( maybe this doesn’t touch her “integrity” and “self respect”), while on the other hand making sex with someone she doesn’t love is an heavy point.While I still don’t like her, I also felt sorry for her .
    I voted for neither. Even if I think,there’s the possibility Peter is hiding something ( as Walter did when he discovered shapeshifters were a creation of Bellie).

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  12. Isa says

    I hate this idea that Peter may know that this is not his Olivia. If that’s the case, I would be really disappointed. I mean, if he knows, what is he doing to rescue Olivia? Sleeping with Altlivia to gain her trust or to know more about her mission??? Aff… that’s sounds lame.

    Anyway, I don’t think the writers will do this.

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  13. annon says

    I don’t think they will go there either. I don’t think Peter knows or will know until our Olivia comes back. However, I could see altOlivia getting to the point where she feels conflicted about Peter and that could play into over here’s hands further down the track. They could have an ally in the altuniverse, when the war begins.

    I could see the writers maybe going for that storyline.

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    • Isa says

      Yes, I can see that too. Till now, Altlivia was shown killing a deaf guy and sleeping with Peter, so I see two options her: or she will be the villain or she will grown fond of Our Side.

      I don’t like the idea that she might be the villain, because that’s makes me think that being subjected to Corthexiphan trials prevented Olivia from being a bad person. That’s creepy.

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  14. Laura says

    I don’t like the idea of Altliv being the villain, too. I think she’s just fighting for her world. In “Overthere, part II” is shown that many people have been declared dead after having been trapped into amber. I found this thing disturbing and disgusting, like there wasn’t any option left. It can’t be. Going back to Altlvia, this fact tell us a lot about ethics and (mandatory)choices on the other side.

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  15. FlashWriter says

    I voted ‘neither’ because I think we’re missing one person on the ballot–Newton himself. He was the engine behind what happened because he was a genius at knowing what buttons to push. God knows, he pushed Bolivia’s buttons HARD. Pushed them to the point where she turned around and did a monumentally stupid thing.

    Have you ever bitten into an apple that you thought that just maybe it seemed a little past it’s prime? As you swallow, you look at the apple and see something moving where you just took your bite? I think that’s what Peter’s situation is right now. As for Bolivia, I’ve never given her credit for any high-flown morals anyway and she seems to have lived down to my rather low expectations. My whole attitude here is what I’ve already expressed: namely that Peter just had a HO HO where he maybe should have looked before he jumped off the end of the pier. (And let’s face it boys, if an Anna Torv clone grabbed you by your shirt collar with a line like “I decided I don’t want to talk” and planted one of those H-Bomb kisses on you, go ahead and tell me that you’d say “no”. If that be your answer, it’s time to start clicking on those messages that collect in your Junk Mail folder about Cialis, IMHO.)

    No, in his last minutes, Newton displayed being human in more ways than if he would have lived out his four-score and seven. IMO, his action jepordized his mission with an attitude that “If I can’t play the game, I’ll screw it up for you.” Ah, Newton. Very, very human to the last…

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  16. Joe Curwen says

    Two things about this that haven’t been covered so far in this thread:

    First, there might be one good thing that comes out of Peter knowing on some level that he’s not with his Olivia, and ignoring it because it feels so good. It makes him exactly like Walter. When Walter stole Peter, Walter knew it wasn’t his real son. But he acted as though Peter was because it felt good and the alternative was so much more painful. So at the end of this story arc, Peter might come to understand Walter completely, because he did the same thing with the fake Olivia. And when you can walk a mile in someone’s shoes, you can forgive them easier. Maybe this is the way the writers are building in a way for Peter to forgive Walter finally.

    Second, I find it funny that Newton would continue to question Altlivia’s “commitment” even after Altlivia killed the deaf guy and hatched a plot to kill a bunch of people in the subway. Apparently, Newton wasn’t impressed with that. No, Newton pushed Altlivia to cross THE ULTIMATE LINE, which was to have sex with her fake boyfriend. Culturally American I guess – a casual acceptance of violence together with the puritanical. Altlivia can become a killer, but becoming a slut – now that REALLY hurts. It seems to me that it would be more realistic and powerful if this “ultimate line” had been drawn in reverse.


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    • Pyrite says

      I agree on both points.

      I’ve long thought that this storyline has been set up in such a way that it has fantastic potential to help Peter come to terms with his past, by having his own part parallel Walter’s. Obviously I don’t know how the writers are going to play it, but this could show Peter both how Walter could regard a replacement as his own son, and why someone would go to such lengths as tearing open universes for someone they loved. Who knows, they could even have Peter keep the fact that he slept with Altlivia secret from Olivia for fear of losing her! (verging dangerously on soap opera here) I also think that part of Peter coming to terms with Walter’s actions will involve him considering the life he would have had had he grown up in his original universe, which inevitably involves the fact that he would not have met Blue Olivia. He has to ask himself whether Altlivia would have been an adequate replacement. Much as I dislike what’s happening, an uninformed choice is not much of a choice at all.

      I am also disappointed that mass murder was a less serious moral line to cross than sex. It’s interesting that Altlivia only seemed to have qualms about fulfilling her mission when it involved something with a negative effect on her. She didn’t mind killing the box thief, or the family, or the people in the subway station because it didn’t affect her directly, but found the idea of sleeping with Peter personally repugnant. Perhaps that analysis is a little harsh, but that’s how it appears to me right now.

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    • fringefan2009 says

      Hmm, I didn’t think about it that way. But you are right, the situation does put Peter in a place where he has to choose, and making the wrong choice, may help him understand what it is like to be in a difficult situation, such as the one Walter was in.

      Also, I have indicated in other posts, that I can’t put having sex with someone in the same category as killing someone. They are just too different. Also, I’m guessing it is morally wrong because Altivia has a boyfriend, but does she know that Walternate put Olivia in her place with her boyfriend? We keep thinking about what would happen if Olivia came back, but what will happen to Altivia when she get’s back to her universe. Will she forgive Frank for sleeping (if it happens) with her Alter?

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  17. says

    I’m with the group that thinks Peter just doesn’t know. When the switch happened, Altlivia came into the theater with Bell. As far as they know, Bell was with Olivia the entire time so how was Peter to even suspect that there was a switch?! So he comes back and starts the romantic relationship with what he thinks is Olivia. Remember, he has NO IDEA that there could have been a switch. Yes, he’s noticing differences but as far as he knows, they may just be the result of the new level of their relationship. People act wonky when they are in love, and especially when it is brand spankin’ new love. So why wouldn’t Olivia be lighter? Why wouldn’t she be nicer to Walter (and others)? Why wouldn’t he be finding out things about her that he’s never known before? She’s in love and is opening up more with him…at least these are reasonable things for Peter to think. And I fully agree with number six in that it is apparently very easy to fool the people who love you. And that was so spot on about the seduction and how it would look like rape if roles were reversed.

    And while I feel a little sympathy for Altlivia and her problems with crossing her own moral line, I feel like every single bit of this falls on her shoulders. She let Newton get to her (and no, this is not Newton’s fault. People have to take responsibility for their OWN actions regardless of what influence other people have on them). She really is weak. She’s been blatently lying to everyone this entire time. She is purposfully toying with the feelings of a man in love. That’s sick! I would think anyone who comes “over here” would figure out pretty quickly that everyone isn’t evil monsters trying to destroy her universe. So can you really justify the things she’s been doing after she can see with her own eyes that Walternate has been lying?

    And for the record, and after all this heavy and awesome debate, I just want to say that I think we will find out that they didn’t go through with it after all. It was the perfect cliffhanger because we’ll have to wait through baseball and the next episode to see what really happens. I just don’t think they’ll want to tarnish one of their main characters that much. And with all the talk of them wanting us to not be able to choose a side, I think they don’t want us hating Altlivia either. They’ll redeem them both.

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    • Becca says

      “And while I feel a little sympathy for Altlivia and her problems with crossing her own moral line, I feel like every single bit of this falls on her shoulders. She let Newton get to her (and no, this is not Newton’s fault. People have to take responsibility for their OWN actions regardless of what influence other people have on them). She really is weak. She’s been blatently lying to everyone this entire time. She is purposfully toying with the feelings of a man in love. That’s sick! I would think anyone who comes “over here” would figure out pretty quickly that everyone isn’t evil monsters trying to destroy her universe. So can you really justify the things she’s been doing after she can see with her own eyes that Walternate has been lying?”

      And what would you do if you were alone in the middle of strangers, with a mission to save your world? At this point she knows nothing about whether this side has plans to endanger her world even more. She’s following orders. I’d love to see someone from this side trapped on the other side, Olivia doesn’t count because right now she doesn’t know she’s Olivia, to see if people would be so righteous about them. If they had to lie and deceive to survive or to accomplish a mission. I felt sorry that Olivia had to corrupt herself as a human being. She doesn’t have memories implanted on her, she’s trying to live a stranger’s life and we have to admit that she’s doing well, considering that the people from over here, who supposedly know and care for Olivia, can’t see a thing in front of their noses.

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      • fringefan2009 says

        You do make a good point. People that infiltrate drug rings are forced to do things outside of their moral structure everyday, but they do what they must to get the job done. Do we judge them because of it? Or do we care more that they stuck to a larger picture and did what they had to, to get the job done. Granted, her job is to gather intelligence from our world, but still, loyal to her side at least, a patriot?

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  18. Pyrite says

    I blame Altlivia: she is the one with the agency and the information here. It’s her own desire to prove herself to be better than Newton that allows her to be swayed by his taunts. I don’t accept her hiding behind her job. She must be responsible for her own actions, even if we can see the chain of causation that led her to make those choices. Surely she must be able to see that the entire blue universe is not deliberately masterminding the destruction of the red universe, that people here are not monsters and that Walternate has lied to her? If she’s ‘just doing her job’, that suggests that she follows orders blindly, which is very irresponsible especially in this situation.

    I totally agree with what was said above about ‘seduction’ versus abuse and gender roles.

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  19. charliefan19 says

    I voted for Peter. He was all for it despite his weird vibes about her. Alt-Liv did it out of dedication to her job (and a very slight remote possibility that she likes him already). But frankly, I was disgusted with both of them.

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  20. Mr. Wizard says

    You are still assuming that they actually “did it” When in fact we really do not know if they did or not and we really will not know for sure til one of the future episodes airs.

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    • Anjali says

      I am pretty sure that they slept together. They need to go ahead with this storyline for the Peter-Olivia drama that will come later.

      To be honest, I want to blame both peter and Altlivia for this issue, but I can’t. People here have commented on the fact that she is all alone in a world, does not have an ally anymore(Newton), is being taunted by Newton, is a soldier from another universe… Like Anna said – ‘Altlivia just wants to win’. So she’s just following through with her mission.

      Peter on the other hand, should be putting the pieces together. But it’s the same as last season – Olivia and Walter sharing a huge secret, and Peter ultimately put the pieces together, but it was too late. So while he was noticing the differences (remember, he said that he ‘noticed’ differences, not that was starting to get suspicious), Altlivia did give an alibi saying that crossing over and meeting her doppel-ganger changed her a bit.

      In my opinion, realistically, I can’t really put the blame on anyone, even though I want to. I’m just waiting for what happens when Olivia comes back. Also, how will she find out that Peter and Altlivia slept together? Will he tell her? Will she find out some other way? I’m really intrigued to find out how the writers will handle that storyline.

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      • Laura says

        I’ve been thinking about that.
        Following the “simmetry” story arc between the two universes, it is possible we will see soon a just rescued Olivia looking staring at the window of her appartment, and seeing her man (…….) with another girl, just as she did at the end of Over There, part I with Altlivia and Frank.

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        • Isa says


          Also, it’s time to Olivia to be able to control her abilities, allowing her to go back to our side without help (that would be awesome).

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  21. Laura says

    Talking about Altlivia, I was really surprised she didn’t try to see her sister at some stage . And if she did, it wasn’t shown at all. It would have been a big opportunity to make this character more human.

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    • Alex says

      So true!!! I’ve been waiting and waiting for a Rachael/Altliv scene. In Over There P2, Altliv found out that Rachael and Ella were alive on this side. Surely they would be the first people she’d look up when she got back? Frank being a close second?

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  22. Laura says

    Definitely !!!!! Come on , you have the opportunity to see again your dead sister and you don’t make a single move? Faking a phone call with her instead?

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  23. Bischof says

    Come on gays, no one is going to blame Walternate? This whole plan of switching Olivias and having his minion seduce Peter is HIS, and has the main purpose of manipulating his own biological son! He’s been using his son all along, and plans to do it further. Altlivia is just a soldier/spy following her superior’s orders in a dirty war. Using your enemy isn’t reproachable; however using your son and ordering your soldiers to betray their morals and loved ones…

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  24. hal says

    maybe it has nothing to do with her mission, she just wanted sum petah action.

    im of the opinion that petah should (inappropriate comment removed), then he’d be a real champ

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  25. BklynBetty says

    You know, it occurs to me that one of the reasons I want Peter to have figured out the Olivia/ALtliv switch already, that I want so much for Grace and MTtwinsfan to be right – is that i consider his not being able to tell them apart a far, far worse betrayal than the idea that he is ‘conning’ Altliv somehow. I know, i know. Even if he Is conning her, sleeping with her isn’t necessary, and yes, it’s a betrayal. But, if in sleeping with ALtliv Peter ‘sacrifices’ what he might have had with Ourliv – at least it might have been in some effort to get her back – like another comment had it (paraphrasing Number 6?), that he would sacrifice ‘them’ for ‘her’. That, even if misguided, if he had a plan – even a crappy one – to me that is better than the alternative.
    I mean here she is, struggling to regain her identity – her very own uniqueness of nature and nurture in a Multiverse of Olivia Dunham’s founded and forged in all that she has gone through and all of the relationships that she has had and all the while Over Here, the idea of her uniqueness – the sense that *she* is, is being ravaged. The circumstances and people that ‘ground’ her in herself can’t tell – her own Life doesn’t *need* her. Or, it doesn’t need *Her*. Their careless annihilation of who she is/believes herself to be, effectively negating her existence. they are calling into question the meaning of her identity, the concept of ‘her’ identity, the concept of identity itself.
    To me – THIS is unforgivable.
    I’m a shipper, always have been. (all the usual disclaimers apply, …want it to make sense, don’t want it to be the focus, blah, blah, blah) Since the last episode, i have pretty much prepared myself for whatever is coming next.
    However. THIS is UNFORGIVABLE (maybe i should have posted this to the ‘forgiveness’ thread, huh? :) ) And not just for Olivia. I fail to see how Peter, specifically, could forgive himself for something like this. For failing to see the difference between someone and their alternate (a la what Walter did to him). I don’t see how he could ever trust himself again. I Need Peter to know. If he doesn’t – I just don’t think i’ll be able to forgive him, whatever Olivia or the writers decide. I just don’t see how they can come back from that, how ANYONE could come back from that.

    Tangentially, One wonders (with the idea of the inherent connection between the Universes and the Olivia’s) if Our Liv would be quicker to remember herself (for whatever “herself” appears to be worth right now), if Our side were quicker to remember her – that is her “old” self, her “real” self, quicker to notice that she is not who she is. If their ‘need’ for her would echo across the universe somehow.
    She has forgotten herself, and everyone else has forgotten her as well.

    Ok. Rant Over….:(

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    • number six says

      “(paraphrasing Number 6?)”

      Yeah, that was me 😀 In my opinion, Peter is a character that exists outside the bubble of the Olivia character (or the Walter character for that matter), so I will treat him as such. He has his own problems and his own state of mind, and that’s very different from what he should do regarding Altlivia from our point of view.

      My preference would be that he’s conning Altlivia, but for different reasons, it would take out the abuse on Peter out of the equation and it would be in character of him. However, I’m almost sure that he doesn’t know. He showed too much vulnerability in The Box and the last episode (although this could be part of his game). He tried to connect with this Olivia and understand the changes, just like he did, when our Olivia went all weird after Jacksonville. He spent almost a month trying to understand that weirdness in Olivia and in Walter and now he’s facing yet another different behavior from her, except that instead of avoiding and rejecting him, she seems to like him and be happier.

      He is not doing, what we want him to do: abhor the changes, reject her and come to the conclusion we want. Personally, I don’t think that’s fair. And I don’t think it’s fair to put the weight of how Olivia’s identity is defined on him, because just like I consider him a character on his own, I also consider Olivia a character on her own. Olivia is not defined by his perception of her (or anyone’s for that matter). His perception of her just informs his feelings and behavior towards her.

      “If he doesn’t – I just don’t think i’ll be able to forgive him, whatever Olivia or the writers decide. I just don’t see how they can come back from that, how ANYONE could come back from that.”

      Okay, maybe I’m the least romantic person in the world, but what if that’s exactly the point? Peter wouldn’t need to come back from that, because there won’t be a romantic relationship between those two and not only because Peter is being deceived. Olivia is also choosing to perceive Peter very much unlike his real self if that Head Peter is any indication. The way she sees him might help her regain her memories, but it also means she doesn’t love the real Peter for who he is, but for what she wants him to be. They are holding onto fantasies to help themselves out of difficult situations, but once everything goes back to normal, they might realize that there is nothing there beyond friendship… if there is any friendship left. I’m not saying that I’d like this to happen, but if it does, it would make sense to me.

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