FRINGE: New Season 4 Recap Video — Past, Present + Future

fringe-past-present-future-s4

John Noble narrates a new Fringe Season 4 recap video, featuring winter premiere footage.

The video recaps Season 4 episodes 1-7 — watch in the player below (spoiler alert: includes winter premiere footage towards end of video):

You can find all 12 parts of last summer’s seasons 1-3 recap series here.

Comments

  1. Cortexifan says

    This was awesome, broke my heart all over again.
    I could listen to John Noble all the time, great voice.
    Can’t wait until next week.
    Fringe Rocks! and watch live!!!!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  2. hal says

    this is great. now i really wanna watch fringe again! i love these little recap vids cuz i usually don’t want to watch everything all over again but this reminds me of all the stuff that’s important.

    screw the negative nancies ;)

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  3. June08 says

    Love these recaps. they’re impressively well done and it is always both interesting and intriguing to see the parts of the show which are in and which are out because it is surely some indications on where the story is going.

    For instance, what strikes me the most in this recap is the fact that the return of Peter and most importantly the reasons why he’s back is directly linked to the Observers and most specifically September but no mention of Olivia’s dreams so is there something more behind this???

    Wait and see…only one week, how good is that? :)

    Like: Thumb up 3

  4. Dylan says

    This still makes no sense. If the Observers could simply go back and change something at any time they liked, why didn’t they just correct September’s mistake of being seen in ‘Peter’? Thus correcting everything as it apparently was meant to be?

    And why is it that “the boy must live” has become ‘the boy who was supposed to have been erased’?

    And I’m not going to even bother getting into the mess of the bridge existing but Peter not.

    Like: Thumb up 4

  5. hui says

    Questions unanswered at this moment don’t mean questions that will never be answered.

    The subplot of Peter’s hunting shapeshifters was thought to be abandoned when s3 ended but now we know that the writers are still aware of the plot they written, or seemed to have forgotten (see s4e5 Novation)

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • Dylan says

      And the hundreds of plot lines from season 1…?

      And of course, favourite of all, the ending to ‘Reciprocity’ with Peter being “weaponized” by the machine. They forgot that in a heartbeat, and when added with Peter’s comment about Walter building the machine in ‘Novation’ (contrary to what was established in ‘The Day We Died’), my faith in their ability to recall and correctly retcon pieces within the series is diminished.

      These aren’t mysteries being discussed, these are inconsistencies within the plot.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • ObservetteMARCH says

        @Dylan January 8, 2012 at 2:20 am

        “And of course, favourite of all, the ending to ‘Reciprocity’ with Peter being “weaponized” by the machine. They forgot that in a heartbeat”

        On this point, I actually totally agree with you Dylan. I watched Season 3 on DVD all in one go and ‘Reciprocity’ especially the ending of the episode really left me questioning Peter’s motives and sanity: “Is the machine now somehow controlling Peter and has he now become evil because of the connection that he has with the machine?” That was just one of the hundreds of questions spinning through my head. I watched the rest of the season without taking anything longer then a toilet break. I so desperately wanted to know just what is about to happen in the next episode now that “the machine” has turned Peter into a cold blooded shape-shifter killer and an immoral liar who is pretending to be helping Olivia “the woman he loves” solve a murder case that he is committing. It left me with such a fear that Peter has become “the bad guy” and that the machine has just like Walter said “changed him”. I was so hung up on that story that I completely lost trust in Peter and thought that he is putting on an act to be “good” in the episodes that followed. Then in “Concentrate and Ask Again” we find out that he still has feelings for Fauxlivia and in the following episode ‘Immortality’ we find out that she’s carrying his baby and that she too has real feelings for Peter. Everything kind of started pointing toward Peter now being hung up on the Redverse. I didn’t even buy Peter’s feelings for our Olivia in 6B because I couldn’t let go of what happened in ‘Reciprocity’ and the fact that he still hadn’t told Olivia that he was the one who killed the shape-shifters. Since ‘Os’ and ‘Stowaway’ didn’t give me any real reason to stop doubting Peter (yeah, he starts telling Olivia about the shape-shifters but we don’t even get a response from her and they don’t get to have that conversation) and wondering if his being genuine. Then in ‘The Last Sam Weiss’ when Peter walks out of the hospital and goes looking for his father “the secretary of defence-Walternate” at Liberty Island it confirmed my suspicions about Peter’s motives. Yes he was “confused” but it happened as a result of touching the machine and I thought: “There we go again, the machine is turning him evil!” Later he is all weird and vague towards Walter and Olivia when he says: “There are two of you, aren’t there?” it confused me even further and made me even more suspicious of whether or not he is being genuine. When Walter is taking his blood pressure and asking him questions, Peter seemed completely ingenuous. Instead of me just seeing it as Peter still being a little shaken from the concussion, I kept thinking there’s more to it and he is putting on an act. All because I couldn’t forget ‘Reciprocity’ and the fact that once Belly left Olivias body Peter didn’t mention the “shape-shifter discs” and how he obtained them again. I assumed that Olivia forgot the whole “shape-shifter discs” conversation because of what she had been through in ‘Stowaway’ and ‘LSD’ (with Belly being stuck inside her mind, her being lost and hiding inside her mind, I could buy that maybe she suffered some memory loss and forgot about Peter showing her his “research room”) and that’s why she hadn’t brought up the conversation with Peter. In the whole ‘The Last Sam Weiss’ episode Peter just seemed really insincere and like on the inside he was still the twisted Peter from ‘Reciprocity’ that can’t be trusted. So as Peter is getting ready to go into the machine I was sitting there sweating, still doubting his motives and then when Olivia tells him that she loves him and he doesn’t say “I love you too” I was like OMG, Peter has really turned evil and he has fooled everyone in the Blueverse and now he’s about to blow them up! NOOOOOOO!

        Man was I taken on an unnecessary ride of suffering and not getting WTF was actually going on and that Peter was still the same Peter. Ok, after watching like 21 episodes in a row and being sleep deprived and therefore a little mentally “challenged” I can see how my state of mind might have affected me as well. Seeing the future in “The Day We Died” really surprised me. Everything being honky-dory (Peter destroying redverse, P&O being married, Peter loving Walter more then ever etc.) except the universe falling apart of course. It was only then that I realized that ‘Reciprocity’ really meant absolutely NOTHING to the overall story. Just like William Bells decoder key, except a whole episode version! Yes Reciprocity pissed me off so much, especially for giving me a completely jaded view of the rest of the Season 3 episodes. People are now saying that ‘Reciprocity’ was foreshadowing for Season 4. Come on? Yeah right! That ‘Reciprocity’ was a way to have Season 4 Peter have knowledge about how to decrypt the discs so that he finds a way for “The Team” to trust him. I remember my sister watching Season 3 after I already finished it. She was going mad and bombarding me with questions at the end of ‘Reciprocity’. I hate giving spoilers away but I had to tell her: “Don’t worry about this episode, Peter is still good, just try to forget this whole episode.” Even after I told her that she still didn’t believe that nothing will come of that whole “The machine is changing Peter” thing especially while watching the second half of “The Last Sam Weiss”. She was like: “You lied to me.I knew it.Peter is still evil.Oh no!!!” I would advise anyone who is watching the show for the first time to do themselves a HUGE favor and skip ‘Reciprocity’ altogether. Sorry for the looooong post but YES: I Observette MARCH, for once totally agree with Dylan regarding ‘Reciprocity’. Huge FAIL on the writers behalf.

        Like: Thumb up 5

        • Dylan says

          It’s unfortunate that they didn’t explore the things introduced in ‘Reciprocity’, it would have been interesting.

          Like: Thumb up 1

        • Red Balloon says

          LOL with the advise for new viewers at the end…I thought you were going to write “spoiler” at this point.

          Maybe we should warn them in the sneak peaks of that episode ;)

          Anyway, I agree with both of you

          Like: Thumb up 4

  6. PB says

    Not that anyone will care because according to so many who contribute here Fringe is all nonsense and plot holes but I would like to address some of Dylan’s comments starting with:

    “This still makes no sense. If the Observers could simply go back and change something at any time they liked, why didn’t they just correct September’s mistake of being seen in ‘Peter’? Thus correcting everything as it apparently was meant to be?”

    First, it may be possible that there are Observers within the greater clan of Observers (like September for instance) who may have an agenda not in keeping with the majority (we’ve seen this in August). Furthermore, September may have seen an opportunity to correct his original error in being seen by and distracting Walternate by saving the boy at Reiden Lake so that the boy could still go on to do whatever it is the Observers understand him to be fated to do (the big difference obviously being now he’s operating from the Blue Universe instead of being cured by Walternate and living out his life in the Red universe). Also, the Observer’s can’t necessarily make someone “unsee” something (as far as we know), but we know they can erase someone from existence.

    “And why is it that ‘the boy must live’ has become ‘the boy who was supposed to have been erased’?”

    Because he survived long enough in the previous timeline to carry out his necessary role in activating and using the machine to rewrite that timeline completely. The Observers’ objectives have now changed because the timeline has changed. Peter apparently carried out his ‘purpose’ so to speak and in this new ‘doomsday machine’ facilitated timeline Peter is the opposite of important, he’s obsolete (according to the Observer majority, but again, we see September behaving strangely in contradiction to the majority opinion of the Observers).

    “And I’m not going to even bother getting into the mess of the bridge existing but Peter not.”

    Time paradox? REALLY? You really wanna hash that one out? Uhhh. . . lemme take a stab at this, HE DOES STILL EXIST! Ta daaa! He tried to write himself out of the time line to save the multi-verse and much to the chagrin of himself and the Observers, he’s still here.

    “And of course, favourite of all, the ending to ‘Reciprocity’ with Peter being “weaponized” by the machine. They forgot that in a heartbeat, and when added with Peter’s comment about Walter building the machine in ‘Novation’ (contrary to what was established in ‘The Day We Died’), my faith in their ability to recall and correctly retcon pieces within the series is diminished.”

    Huh? Who built the machine then? Was it Jesus? I recall in “The Day We Died” Walter realized that it was HIMSELF and the other First People who built the machine, the other first people being Astrid and possibly Ella as well as potential other contributors that Walter couldn’t be sure about. The other First People responsible for contributing to the construction of ‘the doomsday device’ or whatever you wanna call it would have been helpers, Walter’s the genius inventor, it’s Walter’s machine.

    The events of Reciprocity were never forgotten, Peter’s got himself a HARDCORE mad-on when it comes to shape shifters. And guess what a central theme is this season? SHAPE SHIFTERS!!! Yayyy!!! It was alluded by Pinkner and Wyman last season that the ‘weaponization of Peter foreshadowing might not come to fruition until the following season, which we are currently in. So let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

    I await your scathing counter argument Mr. Dylan sir.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

    • Dylan says

      “it may be possible that there are Observers within the greater clan of Observers (like September for instance) who may have an agenda not in keeping with the majority…”

      Let’s try stay away from just making up things to fill in the gaps.

      “the big difference obviously being now he’s operating from the Blue Universe instead of being cured by Walternate and living out his life in the Red universe”

      In case you missed the point, that was exactly what the problem was. Peter was supposed to have been cured by Walternate, Walter was never supposed to have crossed over. At least, this is what was established before the writers suddenly changed their minds (again).

      “Also, the Observer’s can’t necessarily make someone “unsee” something (as far as we know), but we know they can erase someone from existence.”

      Is this an admission that your arguing with me and yet you don’t even know what I’m talking about?

      Put simply: if the Observers can now just go back in time and stop themselves from doing something (changing what happened at Reiden Lake with Peter and Walter), then why didn’t they just stop September from being in the room when Walternate discovered the cure to Peter’s illness?

      “Because he survived long enough…”

      But in this timeline, Peter died as a child. Therefore he couldn’t possibly have made any impact, but alas – he apparently did somehow…

      And stop making up stuff. None of what you have said has been established.

      lastly, the antonym of ‘important’ is not ‘obsolete’.

      “Time paradox? REALLY? You really wanna hash that one out? Uhhh. . . lemme take a stab at this, HE DOES STILL EXIST! Ta daaa! He tried to write himself out of the time line to save the multi-verse and much to the chagrin of himself and the Observers, he’s still here.”

      a) you clearly don’t know how a temporal paradox actually works.
      b) It is never established, ever, that Peter intended to “write himself out of the timeline”.
      c) In this new timeline he exists in the present day, existed in 1985, but in the years between then he didn’t. Therefore you still haven’t even addressed how the bridge is there and how the machine was activated (and even present).

      “Huh? Who built the machine then? Was it Jesus? I recall in “The Day We Died” Walter realized that it was HIMSELF and the other First People who built the machine…”

      Walter (to Peter): “I knew the pieces were buried millions of years ago, but how did they get there, so deep in the past? But now I understand. I sent them there. The wormhole in Central Park — I sent them back through time”

      Peter (to Walter and Walternate): “The First People are us — you, most specifically and maybe Ella and Astrid — I don’t know. I don’t know who it was that took the machine back through time”

      Notice how no one, in either of those quotes, ever states that Walter built the machine. Notice how they each state that the machine was sent through time, hence making it a paradox (something which actually had no evidence to back it up btw – but the writers were too brilliant to pick up on that).

      Please don’t tell me that you’re still going to try and push the idea that Walter built it. Maybe recognize that this bit of dialogue from ‘Novation’;

      Peter (to Walter): “So you built a machine to save us, to form a bridge between the two worlds so that we could work together to heal them both. And you created it so that I was the power source. Only I could activate it, but you told me that when I did, there would be consequences.”

      It actually contradicts the previously established information in ‘The Day We Died’. But of course the writers of Fringe are far too brilliant and couldn’t have possibly stuffed that up – it’s all part of some master plan!

      I got two words for you; Occam’s razor. I suggest everyone who believes the above ought to try this out.

      “The events of Reciprocity were never forgotten…”

      When the character returns to normal in the next episode, and neither he or his father (who discovered the issue) ever brings it up again, then it’s forgotten.

      You have my scathing counter, Mr PB. It nicely illustrates how you failed to pay attention to the show you have so much adoration for, and can’t help but make things up in order to fill in gaps that shouldn’t even exist unless writers aren’t doing their job properly.

      Bring it on.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • PB says

        Cool story Bro!! : )

        “Let’s try stay away from just making up things to fill in the gaps.”

        You tend to ignore the obvious as a means of bolstering your opinion that the writers can’t find their ass with both hands and the script from top to bottom is retconned. Again, August had his own agenda to save a girl he felt deserved to live. September’s actions are shady, and he may have his own agenda as well.

        “a) you clearly don’t know how a temporal paradox actually works.
        b) It is never established, ever, that Peter intended to “write himself out of the timeline”.

        In “The Day We Died” just before Peter’s consciousness snaps back to the present he and Walter share are moment in which Peter says “Imagine the repercussions”. Peter already realized the potential consequences of building the bridge. And again, Peter created the bridge and still exists, what is your take on what OUGHT to have happened given the events that lead up to the current circumstances. You clearly have no idea how a temporal paradox works.

        “c) In this new timeline he exists in the present day, existed in 1985, but in the years between then he didn’t. Therefore you still haven’t even addressed how the bridge is there and how the machine was activated (and even present).”

        The machine is no longer the same, it’s different, much like this time line is much the same, yet different.

        “In case you missed the point, that was exactly what the problem was. Peter was supposed to have been cured by Walternate, Walter was never supposed to have crossed over.”

        So you prefer a story where everything happens in a manner where conflict and turbulence is avoided, sounds boring, but I’ll address this as well. A mistake was made, that’s the point, September’s solution was to go with plan B, not an exact carbon copy of plan A (Situation A: Walternate cures the boy and the boy grows up in the Red Universe and fulfills his purpose). Situation B is a solution to the problem of Plan A not panning out, September decides to save the boy despite the fact that he will grow up with Walter. Seems reasonable considering there is a machine in both Universes and that is apparently Peter’s fate to activate and use the machine. Also, there is plenty of evidence thus far in the show to support the notion that there have been several iterations of this timeline, no one exactly like the other.

        September in the Firefly: “There are things that I know. But there are things that I do not. Various possible futures are happening simultaneously. I can tell you all of them, but I cannot tell you which one of them will come to pass. Because every action causes ripples, consequences both obvious and… unforeseen. For instance… after I pulled you and Peter from the icy lake, later that summer, Peter caught a firefly. I could not have known he would do that or that because he did a young girl three miles away would not. And so later that night, she would continue looking, trying to find another one. I could not have known that when she did not come home, her father would go out looking for her, driving in the rain, so that when the traffic light turned red, his truck skidded through the intersection at Harvard Yard, killing a pedestrian.”

        There are numerous possible outcomes, he knows them all, but can’t be exactly sure how to arrive at any one specific outcome. Thus, the Observers let things play out, a mistake was made, followed by an adjustment, then letting things play out. Your suggestion that there is a magical instant solution to every problem is too simplistic and boring, much like your complaints.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

        • Dylan says

          “You tend to ignore the obvious…”

          When you have to use ‘may’, you’re making something up. When you don’t even use any evidence (paralleling August’s actions with September’s is not credible evidence) to support it then you are really making things up.

          Heck, I might as well just say that God did this – and use the soul magnets tripe to justify the existence of souls and therefore the existence of God, and that the Observers are angels. Bad answer, I know, but at least it meshes with the series better than “September just put on an act the entire four seasons and all along has actually had an agenda, along with a master class of Observers”

          Let us not forget that they’re called ‘observers’ for a reason.

          “In “The Day We Died” just before Peter’s consciousness snaps back to the present…”

          That’s recognizing that there would be consequences (not necessarily being able to identify them, either), but not intending to return only for those consequences. Let us not forget that it was actually the Observers who plucked him out of existence, otherwise Peter would have had to have existed up until that scene with the bridge in this new timeline.

          I have no idea how a temporal paradox works? What you just references isn’t even the paradox! See if you actually knew what you are talking about, you would have highlighted the fact that the paradox – with the machine – is actually dependent on Peter being present. The bridge couldn’t actually be a paradox, but of course the writers like introducing a concept and then crushing it into a pulp ten seconds later.

          “The machine is no longer the same, it’s different, much like this time line is much the same, yet different.”

          Evidence?

          “So you prefer a story where everything happens in a manner where conflict and turbulence is avoided, sounds boring, but I’ll address this as well…”

          No, I prefer a story where characters follow logic and would fix their own mistake – if possible (which apparently it now is) – and not come up with ridiculously convoluted plot in which to not fix it, but get it close enough to being fixed. In other words, take plan B over plan A without having even attempted the first.

          “A mistake was made, that’s the point, September’s solution was to go with plan B, not an exact carbon copy of plan A…”

          You can’t possibly be serious…

          All the Observers want is for things to be the way they were supposed to be! They don’t want to change things, that’s why they’re only meant to observe and not to interfere!

          And the quote from ‘Firefly’ is relevant, because if he can just go back and literally stop himself from doing something (as season 4 has given them the ability to do), then he would have logically just stopped himself in ‘Peter’ from being seen by Walternate – thus, as least as far as that moment goes – returning everything to the way it was supposed to be from the start.

          “Your suggestion that there is a magical instant solution to every problem is too simplistic and boring, much like your complaints.”

          There IS now a “magical” solution, thanks to season 4. And at least my “complaints” follow a path of logic that’s in line with the series, whereas your’s sounds like something Walter would have passed by while at St Claire’s in ‘The Equation’.

          Like: Thumb up 2

          • PB says

            “When you have to use ‘may’, you’re making something up. When you don’t even use any evidence (paralleling August’s actions with September’s is not credible evidence) to support it then you are really making things up.”

            What you just said is tripe and contradictory. First, when you use may, you aren’t making something up, you’re speculating. Second, we’ve seen that Observers are motivated by their own personal feelings which inform their actions, that was the importance surrounding the actions taken by August to save the girl to demonstrate that Observers take actions motivated by feelings, much like people. That was foreshadowing, I’m speculating based on that foreshadowing and you’re ignoring it.

            “That’s recognizing that there would be consequences (not necessarily being able to identify them, either), but not intending to return only for those consequences. Let us not forget that it was actually the Observers who plucked him out of existence, otherwise Peter would have had to have existed up until that scene with the bridge in this new timeline.”

            Again, there was an implied albeit potential serious consequence which again constitutes foreshadowing. One of the nice things about a show like Fringe is that not everything is spelled out, there are subtle implications associated with choices that sometimes lead around corners to places one might not expect, but there’s far more often than not foreshadowing that hint at what comes next. Might you prefer a show where things are spelled out and a bit more transparent?

            “I have no idea how a temporal paradox works? What you just references isn’t even the paradox!”

            My statement didn’t refer back to ANYTHING, it was a near verbatim repeat of the same thing you said to me, which also referred back to NOTHING. The only point you had to make was: “In this new timeline he exists in the present day, existed in 1985, but in the years between then he didn’t. Therefore you still haven’t even addressed how the bridge is there and how the machine was activated (and even present”.

            The Peter that “bleeds though” is a Peter from another timeline. The show goes on and on about the existence of parallel universes that are spawned via parallel time lines, what you’re talking about is not a paradox. Because the machine exists, the bridge exists, because those things exist so too does Peter, a Peter from another timeline. If you can cross from universe into another you can cross from one timeline into another, it’s the same thing. The machine exists because Peter wrote it into the timeline along with the bridge, he literally rewrote the timeline, if Peter had phased out of existence completely following the rewrite I’d be forced to concede some kind of paradox, because how could the bridge exist without Peter. Peter’s still around, Peter rewrote the timeline, there is a bridge and a machine apparently by design.

            “Let us not forget that it was actually the Observers who plucked him out of existence, otherwise Peter would have had to have existed up until that scene with the bridge in this new timeline.”

            That’s not the way I understood the ending of “The Day We Died” at all, evidence that it was the Observers who plucked him from the timeline? All the said is that he never existed, in this new timeline.

            “And the quote from ‘Firefly’ is relevant, because if he can just go back and literally stop himself from doing something (as season 4 has given them the ability to do), then he would have logically just stopped himself in ‘Peter’ from being seen by Walternate – thus, as least as far as that moment goes – returning everything to the way it was supposed to be from the start.”

            He can imagine any possible series of events but cannot be sure which on can come to pass. In other words, the Observers are not sure how bring about the chain of events they are looking for. They had a plan of how to bring that chain of events about, and September interfered, either intentionally or by accident. He then created a course correction, I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that he can just go back and make what happened ‘not happen’ outside of letting this timeline play out and go back to the beginning and do it all over again. Unless the Observers exist outside of time somehow, again, you’re speculating, there’s nothing to support your claim that the Observers can make anything they want unhappen. If that were the case there would be no story at all. They would just make happen whatever the hell they want, I don’t think they’re gods.

            Feel free to unload some more of that angst on me Dylan you ol’ curmudgeon you!

            Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

            • Dylan says

              “What you just said is tripe and contradictory…”

              - Fine, speculate away. But as far as what has already been presented in the show, my original point regarding September just fixing his original mistake still stands.

              I reference this scene from ‘Peter’:

              THE OBSERVER: Doctor Bishop was on the verge of developing a cure for the boy. It was an important moment. He discovered me. There was no other way to witness the moment.
              AUGUST: You have changed the future. You have created a new set of probabilities.
              THE OBSERVER: But you must agree the moment was significant. The boy is significant.
              DECEMBER: You need to take action to restore balance.
              THE OBSERVER: How?
              AUGUST: You will have an opportunity to fix this.

              A man with an agenda wouldn’t go to his colleagues and have them help him fix it.

              ————————————————————–

              “Again, there was an implied albeit potential serious consequence…”

              How does that disagree with my point? Neither Peter or Walter knew what the consequences would be. The Observers having devised a master plan to get rid of Peter certainly wouldn’t have been anything that crossed their minds.

              And if this was Peter’s plan, he wouldn’t have been so confused by what had happened to him in ‘Novation’.

              ————————————————————–

              “My statement didn’t refer back to ANYTHING…”

              uh-huh. Let’s review your original statement:

              “And again, Peter created the bridge and still exists, what is your take on what OUGHT to have happened given the events that lead up to the current circumstances. You clearly have no idea how a temporal paradox works.”

              Now, the above hardly compliments the “it was a near verbatim repeat of the same thing you said to me” as you have directly tied it to the topic of the paragraph. In following with the paragraph, yes, I was correct in stating that what was referenced was not at all a paradox.

              ————————————————————–

              “The Peter that “bleeds though” is a Peter from another timeline”

              Yes, from the show’s original timeline (popularly referred to as the ‘blue universe’).

              “The show goes on and on about the existence of parallel universes that are spawned via parallel time lines”

              According to the canon, each universe that exists is based on a different choice (singular choice, in fact). There are only two universes – blue and red – that can be accessed by our characters. And you cannot call anything a “parallel timeline” as one cannot simply jump back and forth between such scenarios.

              “what you’re talking about is not a paradox. Because the machine exists, the bridge exists, because those things exist so too does Peter, a Peter from another timeline”

              But in this timeline Peter did not exist past the frozen lake. Therefore the paradox of the machine could not have been fulfilled, and the bridge (conflicting with the paradox, as it were) could not have been created – yet they are, and nothing has been presented that explains why this is.

              “If you can cross from universe into another you can cross from one timeline into another, it’s the same thing”

              No, it’s not.

              “The machine exists because Peter wrote it into the timeline along with the bridge, he literally rewrote the timeline”
              , if Peter had phased out of existence completely following the rewrite I’d be forced to concede some kind of paradox, because how could the bridge exist without Peter. Peter’s still around, Peter rewrote the timeline, there is a bridge and a machine apparently by design.”

              Where are you getting this information from? Peter didn’t do anything to the timeline, the Observers did – Peter’s only contribution was the bridge. And as you have previously referenced the exchange between Walter and September in ‘Firefly’, it seems counter-productive that you now suddenly suggest that someone can design a timeline.

              ————————————————————–

              “That’s not the way I understood the ending of “The Day We Died” at all, evidence that it was the Observers who plucked him from the timeline?”

              Let’s see…

              1) Firefly: The Observers set up a series of events in order to prepare Walter and enable him to let Peter step into the machine – when the time comes:

              SEPTEMBER: I must admit, I feared my experiment would fail.
              DECEMBER: But you were right. He’s changed. He was willing to let his son die.
              SEPTEMBER: Yes. And now we know. When the time comes… he will be willing to do it again.

              2) Bloodline: The Observers are already aware of what is happening on the other side, and September ensures to keep others informed.

              3) The Day We Died: The Observers are all standing outside of the statue of Liberty, the dialogue is as follows:

              DECEMBER: You were right. They don’t remember Peter.
              SEPTEMBER: How could they? He never existed. He served his purpose.

              4) Clarification on what the function of the Observers are:

              (From ‘Firefly’) WALTER: Yes! He is course correcting. I don’t know how, but he’s done some kind of… a chain reaction!

              (From ‘Neither Here Nor there’) DECEMBER: It is, as it has always been, our responsibility to ensure events play out, as they were intended, before your intervention. This started with you. It must be you who ends it.

              There’s your foreshadowing in the above 4x points.

              Final point) If it weren’t the plan of the Observers, why were they so adamant about making sure he stayed non-existent in the new timeline, as seen in the season 4 premiere?

              ————————————————————–

              “He can imagine any possible series…”

              This is simple. It shouldn’t be difficult to grasp.

              “They had a plan of how to bring that chain of events about, and September interfered, either intentionally or by accident.”

              No, the issue was that September created an “irregularity”, as December put it in ‘Peter’, by distracting Walternate and preventing him from seeing the cure. Everything since has been them trying to correct that issue – which was apparently a very, very significant moment in our history.

              “I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that he can just go back and make what happened ‘not happen’”

              What do you mean? He’s already done it in this timeline by allowing Peter to drown in the lake rather than save him. If September can stop himself from saving Peter, he can then logically stop himself from distracting Walternate.

              “Unless the Observers exist outside of time somehow, again, you’re speculating”

              The Observers obviously do exist outside of time. Everything that has been presented in ‘The Arrival’, ‘August’, ‘Peter’, ‘Firefly’, ‘The Day We Died’, and ‘Neither Here Nor There’, highlights that they are not bound by the laws of time.

              “If that were the case there would be no story at all. They would just make happen whatever the hell they want, I don’t think they’re gods.”

              Now you see what is so stupid about season 4.

              Like: Thumb up 2

      • PB says

        “Peter (to Walter and Walternate): “The First People are us — you, most specifically and maybe Ella and Astrid — I don’t know. I don’t know who it was that took the machine back through time”

        Notice how no one, in either of those quotes, ever states that Walter built the machine. Notice how they each state that the machine was sent through time, hence making it a paradox (something which actually had no evidence to back it up btw – but the writers were too brilliant to pick up on that).”

        So it WAS Jesus who built the Machine!? 0_o;

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

        • J.P. says

          “So it WAS Jesus who built the Machine!? 0_o;”

          Hey, that’s a good idea. Maybe Pinkner & Wyman should listen to it. Throw religion into the mix, to help cover up the unmitigated disaster that has become the “who built the Machine” storyline. No one built the Machine — Walter sent the ALREADY BUILT Machine back in time for his younger self to find it. He didn’t construct it in anyway. It was always in existence, so yes, Jesus did build it…

          Like: Thumb up 2

        • Dylan says

          Oh, you certainly know how a temporal paradox works. How foolish of me to consider otherwise, master PB.

          I’ll just pick up this rock here now and repeatedly smash my head in with it…

          Like: Thumb up 1

    • ObservetteMARCH says

      You’re absolutely right. Especially about who built the machine. Even in the Past+Present+Future videos it is said that Walter built the machine. So, I really don’t get why Dylan has trouble accepting something that has been clearly confirmed twice. First by John Nobles narration in Past+Present+Future and then by Peter in Novation. So, “who built the machine” is no longer a question.

      Like: Thumb up 6

      • Dylan says

        Because it contradicts the established mythology of the series.

        If the producers said that Walter was actually a transsexual, would you just take their word for it?

        If the machine is a paradox then nobody built it. Simple as that. These showrunners should take the time to learn about the concepts they decide to introduce.

        Like: Thumb up 1

        • Dylan says

          Let me just add one thing to this. Let’s say for a minute that Walter did built the machine, that leaves one very important question;

          Who built Walternate’s?

          At least the paradox, which season 3 supports, leaves no loose ends (as far as its origin goes).

          Like: Thumb up 0

          • g33k says

            If the first people are us according to Peter at the end of “The Day We Died” and ALSO the First People book states the first people were responsible for building the machine (I believe this is what Astrid is reading out from the book during “The Box”).

            Then put those two pieces of information together and that equals the fact that Walter built the machine (because Astrid and Ella wouldn’t have built it, lol) – unless you are willing to discount all the information in the first people book, but I’m not because I know what the source of the manuscript the book was based on is because I read the “Beyond the Fringe” comics (1a, 2a, and 3a) and those are considered canon to the story according to interviews with pinkner, wyman and josh jackson who wrote them.

            As for how there are two (Walter’s and Walternate’s), the ‘branching universes’ theory that was explained in 1.19 (or was that 1.20?) can cover that. The machine existed in the past before the decision that branched the universe happened, so when the universes split (when they did is unknown) the machine as it existed at that point in time would then start to simultaneously exist in both universes. While not addressed as a fact yet in the story, it is the most plausible theory about it that we have to date. Also if you read the comic you can even tie consequences of that theory back to why some pieces had to be retrieved by Fauxlivia in S3 from this universe. I don’t want to spoil the comic explaining.

            I don’t see how some people are still fuzzy on who built ‘Daisy’ when those facts have been established in the dialogue and other canon sources. Care to explain if you still are?

            Like: Thumb up 0

  7. Pierce says

    If I may make a suggestion for all concerned. Whether you are currently disappointed, unsure, leery or satisfied with where the narrative of Fringe has gone and is going, why don’t we all simply wait to see how the season (and hopefully the next) shakes out instead of these constant back and forths that have begun to dominate pretty much every new posting Roco puts up.

    I can only assume that anyone who bothers to go on-line, sign up to post on a blog or other websites dedicated to Fringe is a fan of the show, otherwise why bother to come in here and voice your opinion. It just seems like a shame for those of you who have voiced some rather strong, negative opinions about nearly everything whether it’s comments from the creators to the promos that come out have lost your enjoyment in watching. I hope you all find that enjoyment again. And perhaps the first step is adopting a new mindset not to nitpick the show apart at every turn. Otherwise you’re focusing more on what you don’t like and want it to be rather than what it is, and how good it actually is.

    But that’s just a suggestion.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

    • J.P. says

      @Pierce

      Those of us who “nitpick the show at every turn” are doing so because we KNOW it can be better. Is there a problem with wanting something more from a show you know can be better? What’s a shame is that the minority of “negatives” who dare express their own opinion are always in risk of being scrutinized, insulted and slandered by the big bad “positives”. And no, I’m not calling you, Pierce, one of the big bad positives, I’m just using it as an umbrella term in regards to the general consensus amongst all the positive bloggers, which is, unfortunately, “if they don’t agree with us, then they don’t belong here”.

      I obviously can’t speak for the other “negatives”, but I can for myself — one of the reasons I “nitpick” is because it keeps me in touch with the show I used to love, and to be honest, it’s one of the few things that keeps me watching it. The admiration and respect for the previous three seasons that I continuously garner after every nitpick of this new season are why I still have some faith in the showrunners. Otherwise, I would’ve given up when I encountered the empathetic fungus…

      And, while I can’t say I enjoy some of the more lively arguments I’ve had with a handful of positives, I can say that I do enjoy coming onto this site after every new episode and expressing my honest opinion, because there are those rare occassions when someone like you will politely engage in dialogue with me, and it makes me challenge my stance, to craft a better opinion. That doesn’t mean I appreciate some of the more recent personal attacks against myself, Dylan, JM, and many others.

      Thank you for hoping that I, and all the others who aren’t as happy as you with this season, find that old enjoyment again. I really hope we do. But until then, might I dare ask all the bloggers here to accept each other’s opinions? Just because some may not agree with others does not mean we have to declare war on each other. Can’t we just reply to each other with some respect? (And again, I’m not adressing this to you individually, Pierce, but to the entire site)
      It’d be greatly appreciated.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • mlj102 says

        “the general consensus amongst all the positive bloggers, which is, unfortunately, “if they don’t agree with us, then they don’t belong here”.”

        As I consider myself to be one of the “positive bloggers” (though that’s not to say I’m incapable of pointing out when I feel something didn’t work), let me say that I don’t feel like anyone with a negative comment doesn’t belong here or shouldn’t be posting comments. I don’t think that everyone should agree and be happy. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t belong here either because I can’t even begin to count the number of times I’ve had lengthy debates with Roco or many others on any number of topics because we disagreed. I’ve been debating various topics and opinions on Fringebloggers since the summer after the first season. I would never go so far as to say that everyone who comments should agree. That would be unfair, it would be hypocritical, and it would be boring. That said…

        “Is there a problem with wanting something more from a show you know can be better?”

        Certainly not. I think it’s the sign of a good fan that can still objectively see where the show could improve. I think it’s foolish to claim that everything the show does is good and beyond criticism. As I’ve recently said, every show will have things it could do better. But that’s also the point. Every show will have things it could do better. Including Fringe. And to constantly dwell on those things that you consider to be unsatisfactory can become overwhelming, unnecessary, and unwelcome. I get it that Fringe could do better. I agree that there have been parts of these last seven episodes that were disappointing. But I also understand that that’s the nature of a TV show and sometimes you have to just accept it. Dwelling on it and commenting on it at every chance you get does no one any good. There’s nothing wrong with a good debate about something. But after awhile, when that’s all you see, you begin to lose patience.

        “What’s a shame is that the minority of “negatives” who dare express their own opinion are always in risk of being scrutinized, insulted and slandered by the big bad “positives”.”

        Speaking for myself, it’s not so much the negative comments that bother me — I feel that everyone should be able to express their opinion, whether that’s good or bad, and I feel that there’s nothing wrong in expressing your disappointment with an aspect of the show — it’s the volume of negative comments that bother me. It’s when someone seems to use every single topic and every single comment they post as an opportunity to complain about something they consider to be negative that I start to get irritated.

        To illustrate what I’m trying to say, if you look at the list of “Top FBies” for the month, we’ve had 8 days in January, and at the top of that list we’ve got Dylan with 21 comments, JM with 18, and J.P. with 14 comments. That amounts to an average of 2-3 comments a day, well above the majority of other people who comment. And, not trying to single anyone out, but I don’t think it’s any secret that the three of you tend to be the leaders of the “negative movement.” I understand that you want the show to meet its potential and to succeed, and I don’t mind debating issues with you, or anyone else. But when we’re still having the same arguments and when every comment seems to bring up the same negative points every single time, it gets a bit old. I don’t mind when Dylan brings up his issue with “why didn’t the observer just go back and not prevent Walternate from seeing the cure in the first place” the first time, or even the second time. But when that issue is consistently brought up time and time again, I find it redundant, depressing, and pointless.

        I understand that it’s been a long lowatus and there hasn’t been much to talk about, but even when some new promo or pictures come up, it always comes back to the same negative opinions. And I don’t see how that does anyone any good and it doesn’t make me look forward to reading the comments. I never try to convey the message that I think someone with a negative opinion shouldn’t post or that they’re unwelcome here. Only that it should be within reason. And if you love the show, why not talk about something you felt went right just as frequently as you talk about something you disliked?

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 18

        • Dylan says

          We are “Top FBies” because so many people keeping posting in response to us, and so we respond to them.

          What we get annoyed about is these comments don’t necessarily address the point we make, but instead address the fact that they are negative comments.

          The fact that we’re even having this discussion goes to show you how wrong it is that the “entitled to one’s own opinion” statement only works on the condition that the comment is perceived-positive by the majority on this blogging website.

          btw before now, I hadn’t mentioned the Observer comment in two months. But how often do you think the “negatives” have seen defamation posts against them?

          There’s clearly enough of those posts to give us the solid impression that we are not welcomed here.

          Like: Thumb up 2

        • J.P. says

          @mlj102

          A very nice reply. As Dylan has said, we’re the “Top FBies” just because there’s a vast majority of “haters” out there who enjoy attacking our opinions. Believe me, it’s not the highlight of my day coming onto Fringe Bloggers and having to write lengthy replies to numerous people one after the other, and saying the exact same thing each time. I didn’t wish to single anybody out, such as you, or Pierce, etc, I was referring to the majority of the “positives” who feel that way. As Dylan said, the multitude of angry replies we’ve received indicates many don’t want our opinions here.

          “And if you love the show, why not talk about something you felt went right just as frequently as you talk about something you disliked?”

          But that’s just it… I don’t think I do “love the show”, or at least love it the way I used to, anymore. I try to find things that I feel “went right”, but they seem to be a rarity — all my praise for this season has been given in very short sentences scattered throughout my responses over the past few months. “And Those We’ve Left Behind” is my favorite episode of the season, and to be honest, that’s the only time that I think anything “went right”. I’ll consider holding back some of my more colorful opinions on the show’s direction, as I’ve shared them enough that the entire FB community knows them as well as I do, which of course brings up another insult — “you negatives are just like broken records”.

          We’ve got a few more days of waiting, before we’ll be thrust back into the old swing of things. That inevitably means we’ll be back at the good ol’ positive vs. negative arguments. My intent was to simply ask all of us to look at each other a little more respectfully, and to tone down all of the responses/personal attacks.

          Like: Thumb up 2

        • ObservetteMARCH says

          mlj102 January 8, 2012 at 5:58 pm One of the best comments I’ve ever read regarding the positives/negatives subject. Spot on!

          Like: Thumb up 7

    • Dylan says

      Well, to be fair, we have to talk about something.

      A benefit to this new form of discussion is that it has seemly diminished the population of Last year’s ‘Olivia vs Peter’ – though it still pops up time to time.

      When the show returns to quality, we’ll all be here to share in that. In the meantime, please refer to J.P. and his response above, as it says everything that needs to be said about this topic.

      Like: Thumb up 1

    • ObservetteMARCH says

      @Pierce It’s a GREAT suggestion and I totally agree with everything you said. We have seen 7 episodes of a full 4th season and people have absolutely no idea just what the hell this new “timeline” is. That’s exactly how we are supposed to be feeling right now, confused and uncertain about this “timeline” and where Peter went when he was erased and if Peter really is from somewhere else? Or is he in fact Home already and just doesn’t know it because “something” has happened to make everyone forget him and believe that he didn’t exist past Reiden Lake 1985. We already know that something is being done to Olivia. Could that have something to do with her not being able to activate her “ability” or remember Peter? I am just speculating here. Speculation should be where we leave it at in these comments, rather then insulting each other and especially the writers or the show. I am a fan of FRINGE because it presents me with so many questions and totally unexpected answers. I love shows that do that. I call them: Intelligent Shows. That is why I agree with you Pierce and think that with at least 15 more episodes to go, it is way too early for people to start pointing fingers at the writers and saying that they don’t know what they are doing etc. I have a lot of faith in the Fringe team and they haven’t disappointed me yet. Of course there a those unanswered questions that are driving me crazy but that is how serialized TV especially Fringe operates and what I love about it. Those questions WILL be answered, I believe in that. Fringe has always given answers and yes those answers more often then not come with more questions. It has been like that from the start and I love the anxiety, excitement, frustration etc. that I experience between episodes. Its like a great tumultuous love story. LONG LIVE FRINGE! Can’t wait for Friday!!!

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  8. Pierce says

    Those of us who “nitpick the show at every turn” are doing so because we KNOW it can be better. Is there a problem with wanting something more from a show you know can be better? What’s a shame is that the minority of “negatives” who dare express their own opinion are always in risk of being scrutinized, insulted and slandered by the big bad “positives”. And no, I’m not calling you, Pierce, one of the big bad positives, I’m just using it as an umbrella term in regards to the general consensus amongst all the positive bloggers, which is, unfortunately, “if they don’t agree with us, then they don’t belong here”.

    I haven’t gone through ever post, so, I can’t attest to anyone blatantly stating those who have come at Fringe with a more critical bent aren’t welcome here. But I can assure you, that’s not what I’m saying at all. That decision is solely based on Roco’s discretion since it’s his blog. However, my attempt in addressing the board and the posters who have been more critical of late was to simply offer the suggestion of giving the idea in approaching the show from a different mindset so your watching experience is more enjoyable. I can’t imagine that if you’re always looking at show from a negative perspective, or as you stated, “Nitpicking because you KNOW it can be better” you’re a)enjoying the watch, and b) seeing any good that’s actually there. The nature of negativity being what it is, once it spreads it becomes rampant like a forrest fire and hard to stamp out and very destructive.

    Again, it was only a suggestion…not a criticism.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

    • J.P. says

      @ Pierce

      I tried to convey my appreciation towards your comment, and to not attack you personally, but I fear you may have been offended in some way by the reply. While it was a reply to you, just as your original comment was a letter to the entire blog, my reply was also the same. I was simply referring to the entire Fringe Bloggers community. Again, I did not in any way mean to offend you, or any other individual on this site (mlj102 being one of these as well — my point was not that EVERY single “positive” held the “my opinion is better than yours” mentality, but that it’s the MAJORITY of the positives who do, thus the “general consensus”).

      I appreciate that you took the time to suggest another option of how we could look at the show, and I’ll try to do so. Whether or not it works, I cannot guarantee. Again, my apologies if you were offended by the comment, as I was in no way attempting to attack you.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Pierce says

        I wasn’t offended in the least. I understood you weren’t attacking my point, but expressing your thoughts/opinions. We all want Fringe to be the best show it can be. Sometimes they exceed expections and sometimes they miss the mark. It’s the nature of any narrative, especially television. But I think like it’s been pointed out upthread, while there are things I believe we all would like to see or wish had played out differently, constantly harping on those moments when the show doesn’t live up to the potential from a personal perspective it becomes exhausting to read…and it really doesn’t do anyone any good.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>