FRINGE: 5.12-13 Liberty/An Enemy Of Fate [SERIES FINALE]

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THE THRILLING WORLDS OF “FRINGE” COME TO A MIND-BLOWING END ON THE TWO-HOUR SERIES FINALE FRIDAY, JANUARY 18, ON FOX

Series Celebrates 100 Episodes

The acclaimed series that has explored the human condition through the prism of parallel universes, unexplainable phenomena and unimaginable threats, reaches a milestone 100th episode and comes to an epic and climatic conclusion. First, the Fringe team engages a desperate plan as Olivia embarks on a dangerous and otherworldly journey into the unknown. Then, Peter, Olivia, Walter, Astrid and Broyles face off against the Observers in one final and extraordinary battle for the fate of mankind. The five-season saga comes to an epic and emotional end in the special two-hour “Liberty/An Enemy of Fate” series finale episode of FRINGE airing Friday, Jan. 18 (8:00-10:00 PM ET/PT). (FR-512/513) (TV-14 V)

Cast: Anna Torv as Olivia Dunham; Joshua Jackson as Peter Bishop; John Noble as Walter Bishop; Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles; Blair Brown as Nina Sharp; Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth

Fringe 5.12-13 Liberty/An Enemy Of Fate Ratings

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      • JJOday says

        I still don’t believe this is the final episode. There is one next Friday….and the next…and the next……fringe :’(

        Like: Thumb up 4

        • JJOday says

          Well I still have 3 hours till the finale for me. Good. 3 more hours to warm up and prepare. Just got home from getting Walter food. I even got cranberry juice as a stand in for Cortexiphan. :)

          I can’t believe it’s all ending. Thank you Fringe for giving me hope when I had none, for making me laugh smile and cry. And mostly, for making me fall in love with the characters, the actors, the crew and the dedicated fanbase. I was late to Fringe, catching up in time to watch my first live episode (The Firefly). It’s been a moving experience. Make sure this website keeps going. We still got the reunions, debates, conversations, EU (YAY!) and so much more.

          And remember, keep looking up.

          PS. Anyone else think that keep looking up is the new “See ya in another life brotha?”

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      Okay, here is my first thoughts after a 2nd viewing.

      As Walter said in “The Day We Died” to Peter, when Peter says that they shouldn’t send the pieces of the machine back, it has to be done because they already did it. It’s a paradox. Now, that has been sort of messed with if you factor in the whole “invasion” and “Walter and Dontember’s plan”. But, the Observers thought of this. They said that there only needs to be BETTER than a 0.0000% chance that Observers exist in the future for them to not create a paradox. So, that is what HAS to happen. Walter and Michael will help the Norwegian Scientific Team (I like to think that there are 12 of them and they all are January – December, but human, and that is why the original 12 science team is “original” – because they are the first Observers and why there are “12″ on the original team). That team will do what they did in the previous timeline, they will genetically engineer, using their own DNA, a new breed of human. The difference is they have NEW knowledge that they didn’t have in the previous timeline. They make this new breed of human but DO NOT sacrifice emotions. Once they have created them, Michael touches the new “September” and passes on ALL of his memories. Years later, when they have developed new technology that allows them to move through time, September knows what has to be done. He does everything that he did the last time and instructs all of the other members of the Original 12 to do the same. In 2015, he touches Walter (see, he has this power now too since he is a new version of the Observers patterned EXACTLY after Michael) and allows Walter to see everything. Walter knows what has to happen and moves into the future with Michael and the process repeats. As long as Michael and Walter show up in 2167 and present themselves to the Norwegian scientists and the new Observers do everything as they did before, everything “pre-invasion” still happens the way it did in Seasons 1-4 (except of course, episode 4.19)

      That is the best way I can explain it AND I use existing Fringe “science” to do it. Anyone have anything to add/change about my thoughts here?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

      • Scott42444 says

        Oh, one more thing. The VERY LAST SCENE of Season 4 when September goes into Walter’s lab is different. Instead of saying, “We must hurry, they are coming” to Walter he says “Walter, we have to go”. Walter asks why? September shows him Michael. Michael touches Walter’s face (just like in 5.10) and Walter remembers everything. He makes the tape, sends the White Tulip, and they move forward in time the day that Etta is a little girl in the park with Olivia and Peter.

        Boom. Now, I can rest tonight knowing I convinced myself.

        Unless….before I fall alseep….someone else can change my mind?

        Like: Thumb up 5

        • Walternate says

          But Walter is supposed to leave the moment of the invasion in 2015. That scene where September shows up in the lab in the last scene of season 4 is in 2012.

          Like: Thumb up 1

          • Scott42444 says

            I think that the last scene of Season 4 could be anytime between 2012 and 2015. That is my point. I was originally annoyed that the tape Walter and Peter watch is supposedly right before Walter is going to go through with the plan. He mails Peter a letter, which is the White Tulip. But, that seemed to be OBVIOUSLY after the invasion in 2015. But, maybe I was wrong. Maybe September comes to Walter in 2012 or 2013 and says “They are coming”. They devise a plan. They work as hard as they can to get it ready before “Invasion Day”, the day in the park. Walter is about to get it done but can’t. Something happened. So, they have to scatter to get it done another way.

            Like: Thumb up 1

  1. Walternate says

    I posted this on another article earlier this morning, but I don’t think anyone saw it.

    I will admit I came in a little late. My uncle had told me about Fringe back in 2008 and I didn’t watch. The first episode I watched was “Bad Dreams,” and after that was the Season 2 premiere. I eventually went out and bought the first two seasons on DVD and finished just in time for the Season 3 premiere, which is where I officially got on board. I am terribly sad to see this show come to an end. And despite it’s…flaws, in recent seasons, Fringe always kept me hooked. Maybe it was the mythology, maybe it was the characters, maybe it was both. And for me and my family it became a Friday night tradition. Fringe deserves a lot more seasons than it has been given. Not to say that I’m ungrateful for Fox and WB giving us this chance to tie everything together, and for us fans to have closure. But that Friday night timeslot will be a hole in my heart for a long time.

    For a lot of us, I think Fringe is sort of like Lost, in a sense that it’s one of those shows that will probably stick with us for a long time. Fringe has earned it’s place amongst science fiction legends. It is very rare that a show like this comes along, and when they end, it’s kind of sad.

    Later tonight, we will reach the end of this five year journey. It is the last chapter in the chronicles of Olivia Dunham, Peter and Walter Bishop, Astrid Farnsworth, Phillip Broyles, and Nina Sharp. And what a great journey it has been. It has been quite an experience. Needless to say, thanks to the cast and crew of Fringe who made it all possible. But I also want to say thanks to Roco. Roco’s reviews, observations, and other articles made the series that much more fun and interesting. Noticing all the little things like the clues and overlapping themes that made Fringe what it is.

    And to my fellow fans, your endless dedication to this series is what got us here. The level of intelligent discussion I’ve seen on this website have proven that. I’m glad to say I’m a part of this show’s fanbase. I think it is the dedication we’ve shown to Fringe alone that kept it alive this long.

    Wyman, it’s in your ball park now. Bring it home.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 33

  2. megan says

    I feel like I’m losing a friend. I had the same emotions when LOST ended.
    Fringe will forever live in my heart and on blu-ray/dvd :)

    Like: Thumb up 6

    • Victor says

      Quick question, I have season 2 so should I invest in buying the whole series??? I rarely buy dvd/bluray sets but for this show I may take the plunge…

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • Scott42444 says

        I am going to but that is because I have been a very active “lender”. I bought the Seasons on DVD to make sure everyone could watch them. They have a little damage but not too much.

        But, I bet there will be some special extras that the “Complete Series” set will have that you can’t get anywhere else. I hope at least.

        Like: Thumb up 3

  3. _lost_stef_ says

    THE TIME HAS ARRIVED…. I WILL BE BACK WHEN ALL THINGS ARE SAID AND DONE….

    SEE YOU ALL ON THE OTHER SIDE

    Like: Thumb up 3

  4. NiomiLianne says

    This was a great ride guys. thank you for being such an amazing fan group to join. Fringe was one of the best show that I have ever been addicted to. (oh and good luck with the post fringe depression that we are all probably going to get tomorrow once everything has settled in)

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

  5. LastManInSpace says

    God, I’m going to miss the looks Astrid gives Walter when he fudges her name…..

    Did anyone catch exactly what he called her? I heard Ashak?

    Like: Thumb up 4

  6. LastManInSpace says

    Loving it so far and I’m not trying to knock the show but that is some baaaad aging make up lol.

    Like: Thumb up 2

    • Scott42444 says

      Well, the aging makeup with Nina and Broyles was great. I am thinking that people don’t look as old “Over There” because they have a lot of medical equiptment advances that we

      A) Never had
      B) Because of the invasion of the Observers we stopped trying to invent “age-defying” techniques

      So, they have an easier. pampered life with great (probably universal) healthcare

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

    • _lost_stef_ says

      that was so funny god it was probably the only time i wasn’t hysterically crying of infinite sadness

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 22

      • shidey17 says

        I loved that part. What was with the Liv/Lincoln awkwardness right before that? I thought it was odd.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 19

        • _lost_stef_ says

          yeah its like they were ex lovers or something.

          If i really think about it, its probably because he feels bad because he choose to stay in the Redverse were there was no Observer invasion and he got a happy life with a wife and kids and Olivia didn’t.

          Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 31

    • Anne says

      Oh Geez! I feel so stupid right now! I was like 513, 513, what can be the meaning of it, damn it! Hahaha, now I get it ;) love eastereggs

      Like: Thumb up 3

  7. Victor says

    I just cried….we should just give john noble an honorary emmy or SOMETHING!!! lol

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      Many of us on this website have. He will exist. He will be healed in the Red Universe by Walternate if there are “no Observers”. September will not interrupt Walternate, which means he will not be distracted when he discovers the cure for Peter. But, Olivia and Peter very well could not ever meet.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Scott42444 says

        My hope is that Michael has one more trick up his sleeve and he uses his powers to make sure that doesn’t happen. He technically lives forever, right? So, he can wait until time travel is “invented” properly and go back in time and let Peter and Olivia remember. Maybe. That’s my hope but time is running low.

        Like: Thumb up 2

      • Geoff says

        So I gather they don’t address what happened pre-invasion. As September said, he was from a possible future. Maybe they were observed from a possible future that is no longer.

        I’m not going to overthink it. Given that we are still debating the wisdom of erasing Peter at the end of season 3, I’m pretty sure they didn’t want to go down that road again. :)

        Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      Pam, it is simple to explain that. This is the amber timeline, where Peter was “recruted’ by Olivia, not by the observer. it is a timeline paradoxe, therefore, no perfectly logical explanation is possible.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  8. Hsa says

    OMG!!! I wii always be able to remember that beautiful scene between Walter and Peter long after this finale. This finale has just about everything I could ask for. Even if time is reset, it does not erase what came before

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

  9. Scott42444 says

    BECAUSE IT’S COOL!!

    YES WALTER!!!! WE SAID THE SAME DAMN THING AT THE SAME DAMN TIME!!!!!!!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 22

  10. Hsa says

    this finale could not have been better. Somehow, I was reminded of ET going home. I know that seems odd, but the child and Walter crossing over was moving—and the letter!!! I am satisfied.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

  11. shidey17 says

    Hmmm that was a little bit too predictable for me….and the Peter issue was not addressed at all……thoughts?

    Like: Thumb up 2

    • mesa says

      Emotional, yes. Predictable ending, yes. Good question about Peter, perhaps the original 12 observer team still went back, except for a different reason.

      Like: Thumb up 7

      • shidey17 says

        How could they go back if they never existed?

        I’m not getting that aspect of it. They still evolved that way in spite of the scientists in the future meeting Michael and changing course?

        Like: Thumb up 2

      • Scott42444 says

        Well, Michael and Walter still are alive in the 2160′s. Walternate was still alive and teaching into his 90′s so there is still a bit of open endedness to the story. Michael will live forever (?) possibly since the Observers don’t seem to age. If they use his genetic material to make another “observer” they will get September (full grown). He also has A LOT in his brain and Walter knows the basic recipe for time travel.

        Soooooooooo….there are a lot of ways that the whole Peter thing can be explored. I guess, the Observers still exist. Humans will most likely (in our own reality too) start gentically modifying ourselves. Once they learn how to move throughout time the “Original 12 Science Team” can STILL observe. Remember, they thought they really were observing our history. There were some Observers who “weren’t all bad” and really just wanted to document our human era. So, it is conceiveable that the “new and improved” versions of the Observers would still do that. It is STILL very conceivable that September is a part of that team because his genetic material is definitely still in play because of Michael. Also, Walter and Michael still have ALL of the memories of everything that happened. So, Walter could obviously find a way around this. Especially if it concerns Peter. He sat on his hands at Briarcliff for 16 years. I don’t expect him to do that EVER again now that he is in the future with all the COOL TOYS HE WILL GET TO PLAY WITH!!!! My money is on (if God has any interest in my interests, tee hee) there being PLENTY of story left to tell if any of us help make it happen with Walter, Michael, Peter, Olivia, Etta, Fauxlivia, Lincoln, Broyles, Nina (alive again, hooray) and President Chelsea Clinton.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

        • Geoff says

          As I replied above, September has previously said that they were from a possible future. So maybe they were still from a possible future just that future didn’t happen. Who knows?

          Wasn’t there an episode where Olivia could perceive realities where different choices were made? Walter explained that we perceive time as linear but it branches with choices.

          I have no idea. Let’s just enjoy it. If they erased Peter at this series finale too, that would have been too much. Olivia-Peter are one of the emotional centers of the show, so you still need it.

          Like: Thumb up 2

        • Lauren says

          Walter’s at Briarcliff?? Guess he’s hanging out with Sister Jude, eh?

          Glad I’m not the only one watching American Horror Story this season, haha…

          (Also, GOD that would have been an amazing crossover – we find out Dr. Arden was Walter’s Nazi dad from Fringe Season 1)

          Like: Thumb up 3

    • Uncertainty says

      With or without the time reset Peter still exists because and is with Olivia because he is not from this timeline. Nor the one with the time being reset nor the previous.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      shidey, it is simple to explain that. This is the amber timeline, where Peter was “recruted’ by Olivia, not by the observer. it is a timeline paradoxe, therefore, no perfectly logical explanation is possible.
      and, yeah, it was a little too predictable.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Scott42444 says

        I thought it was Olivia. Then, after the shush, I thought it was Michael. But, since they focused on the “Bullet That Saved The World” I thought it made Olivia ANGRY! Windmark should have known that you wouldn’t like OLIVIA WHEN SHE IS ANGRY!

        But, the shush thing made me think that maybe she was just ready to die and was thinking of Etta. The more I think of it though, I think that it was Olivia since they foreshadowed (as if all of us Fringaholics wouldn’t remembered) her electricity controlling powers in the “previous episode” (#99).

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 21

      • kem says

        i thought it was olivia. When she asked the boy to help her and what she had to do next, he shushed her. She next thing she had to do was get windmark good!! so when she knew exactly what to do with the Captain he shushed her again, his way of saying “there you go Liv” LOL. But that’s just my opinion :)

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 26

    • shidey17 says

      I thought Olivia was going to use her powers to fling the bullet at Windy and kill him that way.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 22

      • _lost_stef_ says

        did u think Olivia being all super BAMF was sexy because i did!! she turned off the city’s power with her MIND… SEXY

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 30

        • shidey17 says

          omg if Altlivia is any indication of what AT is gonna look like in 20 years…..damn……she is just gonna keep getting HOTTER!

          Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 27

          • _lost_stef_ says

            i know right…… God I am gonna miss her playing Olivia so damn much. I have calmed down since watching the episode but i am getting these pangs in my heart when i think that we will not be getting another new fringe episode ( I believe you call it LOVE)

            Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 25

    • FringePhile says

      I thought it was Olivia. I theorize that Michael simply was shushing her, like to not tell anyone that her Cortexiphan powers have now become part of her. And since Peter was very worried about the Cortexiphan, Michael didn’t want her to tell anyone that is was she was going to use to kick some Windy behind!!

      I loooooved that scene!!! So many more questions I have now after the ending…..but I love all these more questions I have! Open ended, love it!!! Fan fic anyone?

      Like: Thumb up 5

  12. FringeCharacter says

    Where was William Bell?

    “The Search for Walter” Movie in 2014

    There was so much left to happen.

    Thanks to all the Fringe team for five wonderful years.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 16

    • Mel Duff says

      He’s still in amber, right? I do think he helped with the design of September’s machine in some way since there was a X on the briefcase.

      Like: Thumb up 1

    • FringePhile says

      “The Search for Walter” Movie 2014 — hahaha love that!

      Isn’t funny how Walter goes through all this just to be with his son, and now it could be Peter (from the look he gave) that goes on a journey to bring back his father from the future?

      Like: Thumb up 1

  13. Psych says

    I’m 100% satisfied with this finale. Such an incredible journey! One thing though: (SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER) If the Fringe team was never frozen in amber, then William Bell is still alive…..right?

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • says

      I’m telling you right now, this ending left so much room for Fringe to live on in written word, and graphic novels, and other media. This is not the end folks!

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 28

      • Scott42444 says

        I AGREE!!!! I am smiling, which is RARE after a finale.

        Damn you, Wyman!!!

        I am rabid for more Fringe now!!!

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

      • Uncertainty says

        Definitely, this ending gaveso much room for an eventual future movie or series expanson as comics or books.

        For me the finale showed the producers listened to our fan base. It was immensely touching at the final minutes, I couldn’t help but start to cry when Michael started playing the music box, my emotional endurance wore off that moment.

        And I guess that’s it. It all came down to the white tulip.

        Like: Thumb up 3

    • Lui says

      It is so cool, that they area giving room for fan fiction and stuff:) I love the ending. It was 100% satisfying:)

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • Joey says

        Peter doesn’t get déjà vu because he has no alternate. Walter explains déjà vu pretty clearly in The Road Not Taken as recalling experiences of your alternate.

        Like: Thumb up 0

    • FringePhile says

      Definitely much more room for any other stuff (comics!!) but I love how they still managed to give us a very satisfying ending (at least for me).

      Like: Thumb up 1

  14. rafa says

    For me this ending was completely UNSATISFYING. and you guys know why? BECAUSE I WANTED MORE 10 YEARS OF THIS GODDAMNED SHOW. there, i said it. I’m wearing black for the rest of my life now, i guess.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 22

        • NiomiLianne says

          I kept holding out for those two. I’m sad that they completely forgot about charlie who was one of the main three of the other side. I guess I kinda understand why Ella was taken out of the picture. Before Olivia had a Etta, her niece was like a daughter to her. Now that she has Etta, they don’t need Ella’s character anymore. Also, with all that was going on, I don’t think Olivia wanted her sister and her family involved so that they don’t get hurt. But still, I wish they had mentioned them this season. Wasn’t Olivia worried about her sister and her family at all? (plus I wish that her nephew had made an appearance) And what about Astrid’s dad, wasn’t she worried about what happened to him? They’d been in amber for 24 years, aren’t they at least slightly worried about what happened to their families?

          Like: Thumb up 2

  15. SissySiri says

    I couldn’t be happier with this ending.

    So when are we going to see the movie where bits of Walter bleeds back into the present and Olivia goes to the future and brings him back to where he belongs?

    I’m crying because it is the end of Fringe. I still can’t believe it is over. :-(

    My favorite comment was the one about what Walter wouldn’t give for a tumor inducing cell phone.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

    • Ian S. says

      How can you be happy with the ending it doesn’t make sense, it contradicts everything Fringe has built! All this time I thought they have the most solid time travel theory of all science fiction but nope last 2 minutes they throw it away. What a waste

      Like: Thumb up 4

      • Scott42444 says

        Why? I at first thought what I THINK you are thinking (I hate to presume, but here goes…)

        As I said above, Walter (who now knows the basic recipe for time travel) is in the future with Michael, the most powerful human being EVER. Seriously, according to Windmark he is the most powerful human being that will probably be on Earth since they were unable to understand how powerful he was. Do you think that Walter would allow Peter to not be happy? Walternate was alive and kicking into his 90′s (and still teaching at a reopened Harvard, I guess) so Walter will be in the future with all the future toys (heck, he could even find a way to coexist and travel between the 2 universes and start using their tech) and can still help send the Observers’ Original 12 Science Team back to ACTUALLY observe time (which December and September thought they were doing, Dontember makes mention that they were lied too about their true purpose going back and observing human history). Michael will be cloned. His grown form is September. Michael will be able to transfer ALL of his memories. They don’t seem to die. They very well could make sure that Peter and Olivia still meet up and have Etta. Who knows. Maybe it’s Blue Peter, whose life is saved. Maybe they are in the alt-universe. I don’t think so. I think that everything that happened up until 2015 happened and Walter just disappears (like he says to Peter). His white tulip gets sent and Walter is gone.

        You have to think about this story as still ongoing. Imagine Walter in the future. Imagine him with the giddy excitement that he had in the Season 3 finale where they are in the 2020′s and he is thinking about Saurapods! He won’t be able sit still. I see some time travelling to set certain events into motion, including September going back with Michael’s memories AND his newfound abilities and making sure that the 3 people who saved the world (Peter, Olivia, and Etta) get to live their lives.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

        • Ian S. says

          I thought about something extended like that too and it’s the only thing that can ease me into this ending. However, I sort of wish we got a little more information into that, considering this season wasted a time that could have been used to expand on that since it’s much more interesting.

          Like: Thumb up 3

      • Aaron says

        Are you kidding? A waste?

        The past five years have not solely been about science fiction. It has been about the characters. How they interact, how they grow, and how they inevitable love one another. While I admit there are aspects of the story that don’t make sense, I am still SO grateful that I was given the opportunity to see a satisfying conclusion for the characters I have come to love over the past few years. Sure, Peter is not with Walter, but Walter “stole” so much more time with Peter when he crossed over so many years ago. Walter had plenty of time with Peter. Now it’s Peter and Olivia’s time to live on with their legacy, Etta.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

        • Ian S. says

          Okay you’re right, not a waste, that’s my angry emotions bubbling up from my Observer body. I love the characters to death but it just really kills me the science part of the show was tampered with so much. It lost my suspension of disbelief.

          Like: Thumb up 3

          • Scott42444 says

            I am with you on the time filling stuff throughout the whole season. I wish there was less “find the tapes” fetch quest and more of what happened in 5.11, 5.12, and 5.13. They could have totally explored all of this stuff. I guess in 10 years there could be some extra Fringe stories added to the mix that will make the ending complete.

            But, I really do think that the show could get away with the Peter/Observer situation. If you think about it, Walter’s character and his love for his son and science AND his disposition of NOT allowing ANYTHING to get in his way is FULLY FLESHED OUT. Not many television programs have fleshed out their characters this well. I think that it is totally plausible to have the die hard Fringe fans expand on the story in their heads to correct any “mistakes”. Really, if you think about it, us die hard CortexiFANS are the only ones to really think through the problem. Also, Observers still exist. Like September said, the Original 12 science team was sent back under the “ruse” that they were just to observe. They were lied too. So, with Michael’s (and therefore Dontember’s) DNA and most likely memories being used for the “new and improved” observers the story writes itself. Well, it doesn’t really write itself.

            Someone quick win the lottery and just pay everyone whatever they want and get a movie made. J.J. Abrams will be done with Star Trek soon. I think that is a good parallel. Star Trek had a few seasons. Some people LOVED IT. But, it wasn’t a fixture in pop culture until the entire cast got together some years later and started to make the movies. Sounds like a good blueprint for Fringe to follow, don’t you think? Well, I don’t have any patience so let’s start the ball rolling on a 2014 release.

            Like: Thumb up 5

            • Scott42444 says

              I meant to say that J.J. Abrams can direct the movie when he is done with Star Trek. I hate the constant comparisons to Firefly, because it’s not fair to either show (Firefly didn’t have a chance to end properly I have heard but I never saw the program’s one season). But, I loved Serenity. I thought that movie was really cool.

              X-Files had 2 movies. I don’t think their mythology was as strong as Fringe. Well, I was younger when it was on and I hadn’t evolved into the sci-fi loving geek I have become. I was “too cool” for that stuff when I was captain of the football team. But, from what I have seen of it later in life I don’t think the X-Files is as tightly wound in it’s mythology. Television didn’t really go that way. Lost changed things for the better in that aspect I think.

              Like: Thumb up 4

  16. DanS says

    I smell a movie!!
    Totally possible.
    By the way, those of you who referenced ET, I thought it too…but it was because of the way Michael raised his finger slowly before putting it to his mouth when in the lab…
    Funny thing is…I’ve been playing Greensleeves on the piano all week, LOL.
    Loved the montage of the favorite Fringe bioweapons by Peter and Olivia.
    I think more than 50% of us figured out that the last scene would involve the scene in the park with 5 year old Etta, but it still was a good payoff.
    My favorite was the swirling effects behind Walter in close-up before he walked in to the wormhole. Reminded me a bit of a number of sci-fi endings (Close Encounters? Something else)…any thoughts?

    Like: Thumb up 6

    • DanS says

      Oh yeah, and also “Contact”, where Jodie Foster’s character meets her dad on the beach in a faraway galaxy.

      Like: Thumb up 0

  17. Lizzy B. says

    Is it now good time to start asking for movie? Satisfying end, but I want more. So where to sign for Fringe: The movie????

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

    • ML says

      Hehe.

      I won’t say I told you so or anything ;p

      Seriously, I loved the finale even though I wish the ending wasn’t something so predictable. But not complaining much today because I enjoyed the hell out of these 2 eps

      Like: Thumb up 3

      • Dac says

        I agree. I wish they would have ended with a different scene with the family just so we could see something new.

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • SissySiri says

          How would you want it to end? How many possible endings could they have had that would satisfy most fans and/or that would make sense?

          IMO, this was a perfect way to end the show with the possibility in mind of a movie, or other means of keeping Fringe alive. Especially that look on Peter’s face, now we all have the luxury of thinking what we want about what that look meant. I think it was brilliant and I am very happy.

          To me the look meant suddenly Peter remembered the time re-set. I am sure there will be hundreds and hundreds of other thoughts of what it meant. This is just what the writers wanted to accomplish, I would think.

          Like: Thumb up 3

  18. p13 says

    If the observers never existed then Walter cures Peter b/c September doesn’t interrupt him. Peter and Walter then hage a good relationship. Bell still goes psycho and tries to create his own universe which leads the FBI ( Broyles and Olivia) to Walter and Peter. Olivia and Peter solge fringe events together and fall in love.Right?

    Like: Thumb up 3

  19. M says

    Making us think September was going to go into the wormhole instead of Walter was utterly brilliant. The look Walter and Peter give each other at the end had me in tears.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 25

  20. Bryan says

    Question for you guys. So Walter originally made a tape for Peter after the invasion letting him know that he would just vanish never to be seen again on what would have been the day of the Observers invaded. My question is, how would Peter have ever seen this tape if Walter vanishes before he could have ever made it?

    Love to hear your thoughts!

    Like: Thumb up 4

    • Ian S. says

      You’re right, he never should have, though Fringe cheated it’s own rules with the final scene so who knows what Wyman’s ridiculous mind could have made up.

      Like: Thumb up 4

      • Scott42444 says

        Wait, Walter said he would stop existing the second the Observers invaded. So, that means…well shit. You are right. He would have had to have sent the White Tulip back through time, somehow. If Dontember hadn’t said he didn’t know what he did with it then maybe. I guess I will have to pin all of that on Walter giving it to the “new and improved” observers who bring it back in time to a specific time.

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • deb says

          I just rewatched it. It didn’t actually say anywhere that the tape was made AFTER the invasion.

          September told Walter ‘they were coming’ just after Olivia found out she was pregnant, which means Walter had nearly four years between finding out about the invasion and the day it happened (when Etta was three years, one month, five days old…). Which is plenty of time to work out the plan with September, realise he had to take the boy through time, then make the tape and send the letter to arrive on the day of the invasion when he knew he’d disappear.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  21. says

    WOW!!! That’s all I got for you now. I’m still absorbing it. Of course, I will re-watch immediately. I can’t wait to read all the comments.

    Like: Thumb up 4

  22. Ian S. says

    What the hell? Predictable much? “Liberty” was an awesome episode, I thought that really brought things around full circle. EoF was really good for the whole part, just not as good as I wished it was, but for me lost all the oomph it made at the final scene.

    So, let me get this straight, delete the Observers in 2167 and the only thing that’s affected is 2015? Shouldn’t the whole past of the show be affected? Wouldn’t September not have been there in 1985 to distract Walternate? It doesn’t add it up, it doesn’t make sense, and therefore the ending is WRONG. Very disappointed about the ending.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

      • shidey17 says

        Yep and yep. I’m satisfied enough I guess but I’ve been worried since I heard the word “reset” that Wyman was going to eff it up. And he did.

        Like: Thumb up 7

      • Ian S. says

        How can the SHOWRUNNER just forget about the focal point of the entire series!? Man, ever since he took over and they made the stupid decision to erase Peter then bring him back in the “amber timeline” this show dropped from it’s beautiful story and quality into mediocre areas. Honestly I don’t think people should watch past season 3, I really feel that. Season 4 did nothing to advance the season 1-3 mythos (except for ZFT stuff) and Season 5 technically never happened, hell season 1-3 technically never happened. In fact the only stuff that “actually happened” for the characters by the end of this show was 2012-2015, aka Season 4, the worst season. That leaves a bad feeling in my stomach.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

      • Ian S. says

        How would that make sense? Why would Walternate be sending him a white tulip? Seriously, all these theories would make sense if it not were for the tulip mail.

        Like: Thumb up 3

    • Overkast says

      I’m with you. December confirmed it when he said it himself if you rest time we will seist to exist.

      Are we suppose to assume what happened ourselves? It’s the finale… you tell us what happened Wyman.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • Anne says

      Who said they would delete the Observers? They’re gonna change them for sure, making them both super intelligent and super emotional, thus not willing to invade our era. But everything that happened before the (non)invasion could very well still happened. Scott42444 explains that pretty well I think.

      Like: Thumb up 5

      • SissySiri says

        I think we all need to come up with an explanation of what we think went on in order to soften the blow of losing Fringe. There are excellent theories here, it is so interesting to read. A lot of these theories are along the same lines, and for me personally I think it was a time re-set that was set to that precise moment in the park.

        So I am going to believe that everything that happened prior to the time re-set, happened. Then Peter gets the tulip in the mail and he looks confused. So moving forward this becomes the mystery for him, a missing Walter and the tulip. IMO that would be the premise of any future movie or mini-series.

        Like: Thumb up 2

      • Overkast says

        I too believe that “new” observers” where created but how did Walter know he would disappear and needed to send the tulip and a tape the day peter and oliva where at the park.

        Like: Thumb up 0

        • shidey17 says

          He explains to Peter that he and Michael will become a paradox and nature will want to balance things out so he will be removed from the timeline at the time of the observer invasion….so basically when Peter and Olivia are at the park.

          I’m guessing he just knows this because he is a brainiac scientist…it was something that they actually took time to explain that didn’t really make sense to me.

          Like: Thumb up 0

    • ian says

      Simple. It is a timeline paradoxe. the reason season 4 existed.
      What we see is the amber universe, not the blue one. The amber universe is a reseted timeline, where Peter exists without the observer’s interference. It was Olivia that brought him back. That is the timeline we are watching in season 5.
      All timeline travels have paradoxes (we already had one after season 3).

      Choose to buy it or not, but it is scientifically acceptable.

      So, yes, in the new timeline, the observers will seise to exist, but it wouldn’t eliminate Peter.

      If you don’t accept the paradoxe idea, you should have stopped watching the show after season 3 finale.

      JMHO!

      Like: Thumb up 5

  23. QbanariK says

    Was I the only one that kept hoping Liv was going to see a rainbow with AltLiv on the red universe? I guess the KeepLookingUp hashtag got my hopes high. That would have been a wonderful touch.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

    • SissySiri says

      The sky looked brighter, cleaner in the Altverse, due to no nasty carbon dioxide being pumped into the air. Could there be a hint of a rainbow in those shots of the sky? I don’t think so, I was hoping for a rainbow too.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  24. M says

    The one thing that still bugs me is how the Observers invading the past in itself doesn’t erase their own existence. Anyone figure this one out?

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • Ian S. says

      That one I understand. It’s the same reason Walter can live in the future yet the future still exists for him even though the scientists never made the Observers. For the Observers, they cannot erase themselves unless they went to the singular point where they were created and stopped that. Technically, by invading anywhere up to that point (which includes getting involved in seasons 1-4), there is still a probability that their future can happen. When the probability reaches 0% (if they ruined their own creation), then they cease to exist. However, even if their probability for existence is only 0.0001%, they could still exist. 2015 is a long way off from 2167, and therefore their existence was basically sound.

      Like: Thumb up 2

        • Ian S. says

          Yeah, that’s what I imagined. Invade 2015 and then change the climate of the planet so they can all breathe it properly, get some Loyalists to help them do it for 30-some odd years, then get all their kind from 2609 into the past and eventually when time hits 2167 their future would never exist, and 2167 would be their present.

          Like: Thumb up 3

  25. DanS says

    Questions:
    1) Why is there still a Fringe division in the alt verse in 2035? What are they investigating if there is no war between universes??
    2) Will time be reset in the alt verse?
    3) Did Peter ever know what the white tulip meant?? Did Walter ever explain to him that it meant “God does exist”?
    4) What ABOUT William Bell….isn’t he still lurking around?
    5) Nina?
    6) Isn’t a younger 2015 Walternate still around?
    Again, I say, wait for the movie!

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • says

      1.) The Alternate Fringe division was put in place to investigate the environmental and temporal disturbances created at the zero even of 1985 at Reiden Lake. AKA the Walter crossing. It is quite possible that after the reset they never formed.
      2.) I think I just answered that.
      3.) The whole point of the white tulip was to give Peter DejaVu. In the White Tulip episode Peter said DejaVu was the universes way of telling you that you are on the right destiny. He said he never gets it. But if you read his expression when he sees the white tulip at the end, it is VERY obviouse he is getting DejaVu, thus he is on the right destiny. BRILLIANT!
      4.) We could assume two things about William Bell, (1) He is still lurking around. (2) He died of Cancer like he was supposed to. (or any other number of things that could possibly have happened in the “Green” Timeline.
      5.) I would also say it is safe to assume that Nina is still hanging out at MD, and also acting as head of the Science Division of Fringe.
      6.) Since we know that the red universe was doing just fine while we were being oppressed over here, and that good ole Walternate was still kicking in his 90′s then it wouldn’t be a stretch of the imagination to assume that in the reset “Green” timeline (2015) Walternate is in fact still around.

      Does this satisfy your wondering?

      Also I would love a movie too. If not, then perhaps there are some deleted scenes or an epilogue like LOST did on the forthcoming DVDs.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

      • DanS says

        Thanks, Rick, I appreciate your answers!
        In a perfect world (and bottomless budget) would have been cool if they had let the Fringe team travel to 2609, or even 2167. Would have been great to see them walking outside, discovering all of the things we loved so much when they first explored the alt verse. Oh well, perhaps the movie will have the budget for that- JJ, just reallocate some of the funds from the next Star Trek project!

        Like: Thumb up 4

      • ian says

        was trying to find out the true meaning of the tulip at the end and you got it Rick. Thks. Very subtle…I think most people, like me, missed it. or maybe just me.

        Like: Thumb up 3

    • Geoff says

      1) Have you any idea how hard it is to kill a government agency even after its accomplished its mission?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  26. Fleshking says

    boooo

    so at what point does Walter wink out of existence in the past?

    The Observers don’t exist anymore as we know it. Nobody distracts Walternate.

    William Bell is possibly still around.

    Walternate still cheats on his wife with high priced asian hookers/or his mistress….that’s all that matters.

    Like: Thumb up 5

  27. Ian S. says

    If we’re to understand Fringe’s rules of time travel, it goes as follows:

    The timeline is rewritten when the past is changed, at any change. September being painted in pictures from the past is a small example of this, as him being there changed the timeline originally, as he is now in the picture. A large example is September deciding to not save Peter in 1985, thus causing the amber timeline (which is the timeline where Peter was dead at every moment past 1985).

    So, yes, by invading the past the Observers are risking their future. However, unless they changed the moment they were created in 2167, they will always have some probability of existing, be it 99.999% or 0.0001%. By invading the past, yes they are changing their future, but they have essentially 152 years to do it until their probability of existing is 0%. They were all eventually going to go to the past to live, and when they did and it reached the year 2167, then their future would cease to exist.

    All this makes sense. Which is why the ending was an awful piece of science fiction. It contradicted ALL THESE RULES. By deleting the Observers in 2167, that would mean they have a 0% probability of existing and therefore everything they intervened with was, well, never intervened with. Just like by erasing Peter, all the things Peter intervened with were changed. Therefore, the science team of 12 never went back in time to observer our beginnings, which means September never distracted Walternate, which means Peter would have been cured and grown up in the redverse and everything would be different.

    Yes, him and Olivia could have still met, as it was hinted at the William Bell and Walter were going to cross over anyways and it was also hinted they would have a romance no matter what timeline, and therefore the ending scene COULD still be possible, that MAYBE Peter and Olivia met through universes and had a baby named Etta, but the final final scene contradicts that then, with Peter receiving the White Tulip. He should have never gotten that because the Observers never existed therefore Walter never would have wanted to send Peter that. So there, they just ruined in 20 seconds their WHOLE show, yeah if you want to accept the ending go for it, but it’s not science fiction anymore then because it surely broke it’s own rules.

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • Scott42444 says

      I don’t think the Observers never exist. They do exist but a different version of them. This version is made from Michael. The Observers would still most likely figure out how to exist outside of time. The would probably then want to go back and document history. This time with an even better reason since they have an emotional link to the past.

      The white tulip though, I think you are right. Walter made the tape explaining the letter AND sent the letter well after the Observer invasion. So, the letter arriving at Peter and Olivia’s the day of the park takes quite a leap on our part to explain. I guess I will have to go with my previous theory that Walter has Michael pass on the memories to a new September (this time with 99.999% more feelings), his adult clone and when he is sent back to Observe time he has to mail the letter. But, that envelope wasn’t quite as “worn down” as say…….the one Marty McFly gets from the Doc. That one is all brown with age. Maybe there is still hope that the ending of the show tonight is just the beginning scene of a movie down the road. If they could explain away this lapse in logic then it solidifies the whole thing.

      Why would Wyman make a mistake that he could have avoided if it weren’t for the scenes from the SAME EPISODE?!?!? Who knows. Maybe someone can explain it to me and help it make sense but I doubt it. I still loved it. I am going to start forgetting the mistake now.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • deb says

        I don’t have a no-observer problem or a problem with the timing of the white tulip mail, but I don’t understand why there would be a scientist in 2167 who would want to try to evolve humanity after 150 years of occupation. Unless that scientist is Walter himself (spin-off series anyone?).

        Also, assuming that the creator’s timeline is unaffected by the invasion I wondered why Walter and Michael would be able to approach that scientist and show him the alternative, wouldn’t there be observers there at that point observing and shielding their creator from any interference? But I suppose there would be some sort of protocol around origin point to protect it from interference by the observers themselves, who they would assume are the only time travelers who would have the knowledge to change things. Timey-wimey headache, but I suppose I am satisfied with my own assumptions.

        Like everyone has said, I felt closure but love the potential for more Fringe from the unanswered questions. Bring on the movie!!

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • ian says

          You have a good point. Yes, the observers could have just protected their creator, by time travelling and stopping Michael and walter.
          But, the thing is: they reseted the time the second they went to the future. that action, in itself immediately changed the future. There is no “future with the creator” to protect anymore, because it never existed.
          You can argue: how come the observers didn’t foresee this? That is unexplained.

          Like: Thumb up 1

  28. willg says

    Everyone is talking about the observers never being created at all. I believe the point of sending michael back was to show they can still create the observer but model them after michael and not forsake the emotional for the intellectual.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 21

      • _lost_stef_ says

        that’s why I thought they were sending Michael to the future to show them they don’t have to create emotionless ZOMBIES they can have the best of both.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

      • Overkast says

        The issue is how did Walter know he would disappear and needed to send the tulip and a tape. The day peter and oliva where at the park.

        Like: Thumb up 1

        • ian says

          Walter knew it because he planned it that way….He knew he would dissapear and so, he made the tape and sent the tulip.

          Like: Thumb up 1

    • ian says

      The issue is because Michael can’t travel through time.
      Even if they created a new type of an observer (which is total speculation), he wouldn’t be able to time travel and therefore, still no Peter.
      Just explaining the debate.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  29. willg says

    That scene with Walter walking hand in hand with Michael reminded me of him and Peter walking through the portal in Peter. I am so going to miss this show.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

    • _lost_stef_ says

      yes exactly… and when Peter mouthed i love you to his dad holy f*** im breaking down again

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

  30. willg says

    How about Gene. Nobody mentioned we got to say hello and goodbye to an oblivious Gene. That was awesome. And Astrid and Walter together was amazing as well.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 14

        • Tash says

          yeah gene’s awesome
          when i was watching it. it was like -
          Astrid: Walter, theres something i want to show you
          Me: Its Gene, Its Gene!!
          (See gene on tv)
          Me: OMG I WAS RIGHT, ITS GENE, ITS GENE- YAY!

          My family now thinks im mental (:

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  31. _lost_stef_ says

    I am satisfied i am happy i loved the episode. Yes i am still crying while i am typing this but although predictable I could not have asked for a better series finale.

    Guys i have so many emotions and i can’t really think straight….

    I want to write more but yet i can’t really formulate what i want to say at this moment. I need time to reflect.

    But I AM SATISFIED and I AM HAPPY….

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

  32. _lost_stef_ says

    Let me just add my viewing of this episode was just as hazy as Olivia’s view while crossing universes under the influence of Cortixiphan but mine were from my ongoing tears. I kid you not they did not stop for the 2 and bit hours i spent watching both episodes..

    Like: Thumb up 7

  33. Ian S. says

    Okay found something that might work.

    When the scientist in Norway realized he could have the Observers with emotions, they were still made and therefore still went back in time to observer our beginnings, and accidentally distracted Walternate still and therefore all that stuff still happened. The only difference being that since they had emotions they never invaded us in 2015. That works, but the show should have told us that.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 14

    • Justin says

      Yea I was thinking the same thing, this would seem to be the only way it would work though they still should have mentioned something about it. That moment is one of the most important in the whole show, they shouldnt have just left behind

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Ian S. says

        That’s exactly how I feel, they should have showed us perhaps a montage of all that happening at the end. I feel almost betrayed that they didn’t.

        Like: Thumb up 4

        • Scott42444 says

          Even better (since Wyman said he had the ending all figured out before the season started) there should have been 2 scenes at the very beginning. One where Walter is in the 2160′s and handing an envelope to a scientist along with a young boy (whom we never see and would probably think was Peter in a brilliant move of misdirection) AND show Peter, Olivia, and young Etta in the park. I love the idea of one of the last scenes being one of the first scenes. They could have done it twice. THAT would have been perfect.

          Like: Thumb up 3

    • Jason says

      So you were intelligent enough to figure this out but you still wanted the writers to be obvious and tell you this is what they were thinking? September expressed that the original twelve were different, if you can take the fact that they were sent as the original 12 BECAUSE they were different then they would still have the feelings they have for humans in that time but possibly even stronger.
      Everyone needs to think of this as a linear timeline in which this is happening. I think too many are thinking this happens circular. If you can remember the “white tulip” episode, scientist Allistair Peck was having a linear experience in time, while everyone else seemed to have a repetitious experience. I think having the white tulip at the end let’s us know that everything worked out in the future and Walter’s final achievement was to travel back and send the white tulip to let Peter know everything was going to be okay. As did Allistair did for Walter.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

        • Scott42444 says

          Please, if anyone tries to poke holes in this logic just save it for another day. Kind of like the fact that Walter sent the letter much later than the day in the park. So, it is out of his possession and probably was lost in the mail when they all ambered themselves. But, that’s not to say he couldn’t have just made a new white tulip. He probably memorized every intricate detail of the damn thing since it was so important to him. I could just see Walter tracing the picture with his finger while thinking of different plans and stuff. So, he sent the letter AGAIN. This time though it is with part of the new Observers. Hell, maybe Walter is an observer in this new timeline. Who is to say he doesn’t have the Norwegian scientist extend his life (or amber him) until they develop the new tech that DOESN’T sacrifice emotions (if they even need it now, I am assuming that they still do in order to teleport through time and space since Michael couldn’t do it). Then, Walter sticks it in his head ala Peter earlier in the season and travels through time all wily nilly. Cue the Monty Python music and a new sitcom is born.

          Like: Thumb up 4

      • ian says

        Jason, thk you for your inputs.
        Timeline is linear, not like a circle. Everything happens at the same time.

        But, I disagree that walter went back in time to sent the tulip to Peter. As I see it, he sent it to someone (who?) before the reset. It is simple: he gave the letter to someone, asking him (her) to e-mail it after 2015, just like Alistair Peck did it with Carol Bryce.

        Like: Thumb up 2

      • Ian S. says

        The problem is it’s not officially figured out, it’s my educated guess and I really have no indication to know if I’m right or not. It leaves me wondering if Wyman is absolutely brilliant or terribly dumb.

        Like: Thumb up 1

  34. DanS says

    CHECK THIS OUT!
    At 56 minutes in, when Alt Liv, Olivia and Michael are getting off at battery park, there is a sign on the left of the bridge with a PICTURE OF A CHILD HOLDING HIS FINGER TO HIS LIPS SAYING SHHH. “Residential Quiet Zone, Please turn off engine while connected to dock”, LOL.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

  35. J.P. says

    Wow. It’s over.

    I’ll just come out and say it: I’m satisfied with the finale. I’ve had countless issues with the last two seasons, but these final episodes have saved the show for me. The climax was slightly disappointing, just because I could see it coming. Many of the posters here suggested the reset would take us back to the day in the park, and the moment Olivia had a flashback of that day while unconscious from the cortexiphan, I knew it would happen. Furthermore, when Walter recorded himself talking about leaving Peter a note, I instantly thought of the white tulip. It was rather easy to piece together a rough idea of the ending before it came up. But even if this ending was a little too predictable by Fringe standards, it was still a great way of wrapping up the characters’ journey. And at the end of the day, that’s all that really matters.

    I would’ve liked some more clarification on the ramifications of this reset; if the Observers never existed, then how did Walternate not find the cure to Peter’s illness? How did Peter and Walter survive falling into the lake? Was Peter ever erased by the Machine, or did the multiverse save itself some other way? The list could go on, but in Wyman’s defense, expecting those questions to be answered in ways that felt organic without pulling the audience out of the emotional resolution would be asking a bit much. So, it’s up to us to fill in the blanks. It’s been established that the universe has a way of course-correcting (momentum can be deferred, but only temporarily), so I’m fine with accepting that some string of circumstances again brought the characters together.

    A couple of things really did surprise me. The first was Olivia. I was surprised by the heavy emphasis this season had on Peter, and the minor emphasis it had on Olivia. It was honestly refreshing to see the most under-used of the main trio to take the spotlight, but it made Olivia seem like a supporting character. Olivia became the main source of action in this episode, but most of the emotional material was given to Peter and Walter. I didn’t feel that Olivia grew in any serious way, instead becoming a somewhat wooden action hero. Meh, it’s not a real complaint, just… odd.
    And I can’t believe that I’m going to say this, but the thing that surprised me the most was Lincoln. Yeah… Lincoln… The character whom I despised more than anything else became arguably the most enjoyable part of the finale for me. It’s really hard to explain why I enjoyed seeing him again. Maybe it was because Seth Gabel didn’t look and act like a complete idiot for once, or maybe it was just because I felt happy for him and Bolivia, and I was actually disappointed that he wasn’t seen again in the last hour. Damn it. I like Lincoln again.

    It’s hard for a true fan to hate this ending. Everything happened the way it should have. There’s not much room for improvement. Sure, answers to some questions would have been welcome, but it all goes back to the “characters over plot” approach. My favorite movies and shows are ones that follow that approach, and the primary reason I lost faith in Fringe before was because I thought it became “plot over characters”. Regardless of what came before, the ending was absolutely “characters over plot”, with Olivia, Peter and Walter’s arcs being wrapped up in definitive and emotional ways.

    So, this is it. No more Fringe, no more Fringe Bloggers. Despite the fact that I’ve gotten into numerous debates (or all-out arguments) with several of the people here, I’d like to take this time to thank each and every one of you for remaining such loyal and dedicated fans. Even if you had issues, you all kept watching it until the end, and that’s truly admirable. Specifically, I’d like to give a shout-out to those who used to be called “negatives” — the ones whom, like myself, had doubts and problems with the show’s recent direction. Username’s like JM and Number Six, (and those like Dylan and Darth Kate, who were unfortunately bullied off the site) come to my mind, and I want to say thank you for sticking with Fringe, and for backing up all us “negatives” when we needed it.

    Keep looking up, be better people than your parents, and goodbye my fellow fans. It was a bumpy ride at times, but at the end of the day, it was very well worth it.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 28

    • ML says

      But see Olivia was emotional all season. She did grow.
      Thank GOD she was’t crying in the finale. We got our hero back.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 32

      • J.P. says

        ML, that’s true and I agree it was good to at least see her doing something in the ending. A little more characterization with Peter and Walter wouldn’t have hurt, though. But what can I say? The ending lived up to most of the hype, and wrapped up her arc brilliantly. I’m not complaining any more.

        Like: Thumb up 7

    • QbanariK says

      I liked Lincoln too -there I said it lol. I think because this time eyebrow man lost the nerdy glasses and got certain swag that reminded me of AltLinc. Even the ass grab caught me off guard for his character that used to be so boring and annoying at times :D

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

    • Briar says

      Well said – I missed Darth Kate and thought the site much poorer after she was bullied off it. It’s nice to see her tart but well reasoned contributions to the debates honoured as well.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

      • Mel Duff says

        I find this interesting. This is my first visit back to the site in two years because Darth Kate was so rude to people. She called two posters “condescending” and told another to “take the stick out” of her own orifice. I left the site because of her.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

        • J.P. says

          Mel Duff,

          I decided to thank Darth Kate simply because she was one of the “negatives” and she backed me up on numerous occasions when other equally rude posters who used words worse than “condescending” or phrases like “take the stick out” thought it would be fun to personally attack me. I’m not a fan of her word use, and didn’t always agree with her, but I still respected her and wanted her very large contribution to the site to be honored. In fact, I want everyone’s contribution to this site to be honored.

          Like: Thumb up 5

          • Mel Duff says

            I understand what you mean. Thanks for your comments, Betty and J.P. I appreciate all well-reasoned commentary, including yours. Thanks for keeping it civil. :)

            Like: Thumb up 3

    • megan says

      Very well said J.P. What you said is almost exactly how I feel.

      Fringe was far from perfect these last few seasons. But I kept watching because I love/d the characters and will miss them greatly.

      Like: Thumb up 4

    • DarthKate says

      Alas, it seems my immortal legacy still lingers. Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it… even though this season was abysmal…

      Trolololo and goodbye. ;)

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

    • ian says

      LOL! It is funny reading someone else mentioning bullying from this blog! it figures…
      nice callback J. P.!

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  36. M says

    Technically, the osmium bullets shouldn’t have worked because the laws of psychics were restored at the end of Season 3. But it was REALLY COOL.

    Like: Thumb up 6

      • Scott42444 says

        I thought that too but I just let it slide. Did they work because they were created when the laws of physics were all busted or did they ONLY work WHEN the laws of physics were all busted?

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • AlyssaChey says

          As Walter said, It’s just cool (or something like that :D )

          Great ending. Still think the band of cortexiphan kids from blue universe going to redverse would have been cool :)

          Like: Thumb up 3

  37. M says

    Thank you so much, Fringebloggers, for mobilizing the fans all these years and giving us a forum to theorize in between episodes.

    And if any of the Fringe cast and crew are lurking on here, thank you for creating one of the most exciting and intelligent shows I’ve ever watched.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  38. epoh says

    I loved it…haven’t been the biggest fan of this season, but the finale was perfect. Makes me wonder how they managed to mess season 4 up so badly when they are clearly capable of making amazing television.

    Like: Thumb up 4

    • says

      I’m here I am still kinda digesting it at the moment. Hell I’m still reading comments, and doing damage control. Rest assured it’ll be up at some point in the next 12-24 hours, maybe even sooner.

      Like: Thumb up 2

        • says

          I will do my best. Just keep the possible futures thing in mind until I do. Hint: The original possible future of the Observers was replaced by the new possible future of the enlightened ones. (New Observers).

          That’s all I’ll say right now as I have to probably sleep on it, and maybe re-watch the episode to get it coherent.

          Like: Thumb up 4

      • Scott42444 says

        Also, Rick if you ever do a new series “fan-edit”, I have a question. I for sure would love for “Unearthed” to be shoehorned into Season 1 (especially because of Charlie being there) but would you also put 4.19 at the beginning of Season 5? I think that is how I will rewatch Season 5. I will turn 4.19 into 5.00 and go from there.

        While you are thinking and doing damage control could you PLEASE do your best to explain the “White Tulip” getting to Peter in the mail even though it is sent (at the very least) months after the day in the park (meaning that Walter is gone/erased/moved to the 2160′s by then). My guess is that it is sent back in time with the new and improved observer science team who ACTUALLY are just observing history. Walter tells Michael to give the new September all the memories he has in his head and gives him an envelope and a new “White Tulip” and has him put it in the mailbox of Peter, Olivia, and Etta’s house in 2015. Walter CANNOT still have it in his possession when he and Michael go back in time because he sent the letter already in the mail (which most likely never got delivered because Peter was ambered already by the time it arrives). It cannot be said that it was sent normally because the videotape that Peter and Walter watch was made a long time after the invasion and that is the day Peter receives the letter in the “green” timeline (damn, I would have loved to have seen that intro with a green background). Anyway, what’s your guess? I think Wyman and J.J. Abrams HAVE to do a movie now to tie up the story (btw, I still LOVED the finale but I would want to fornicate with it if I could tie up some of the issues I have with it in my head).

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • Scott42444 says

          Basically, after rewatching the episode, it all has to tie in to Michael. The really emotional (and pretty damn amazing) scene with Peter and Walter in the lab has a strange little cut away to Michael in there for about 1 second which I can’t understand it’s purpose. Why would they show Michael, who doesn’t even change his expression (well, he barely does). Michael has to be the “missing link” to all of this.

          Basically, if they would have given us 3 seconds (they could have eliminated that stupid scene where the loyalist is walking her dog in Battery Park…BTW what the heck was that about?) of Michael off in the distance of the park watching Peter and Olivia (maybe even holding an older person’s hand…….or maybe not, that’s too much, but at least Michael…….oooooh, maybe with an Observer-like individual but one with a smile on his face) a lot could have been explained that way. 1 less thematic leap we all would have to take, anyway.

          Like: Thumb up 2

        • Fringe Fanatic says

          I think the White Tulip meant that the Walter from the future found a way to travel back in time and he will be seeing Peter again….it was a signal that he was back. Walter would never have just kicked back in the future and not find some crazy way of changing things again. He was far too into doing off the wall things and would have found a way back. I don’t get the look on Peter’s face when he finally seems to get what the Tulip meant. Did it mean he remembered everything or did it mean he, too, thinks Walter is going to show up on his doorstep?

          Like: Thumb up 1

          • says

            That is the look of Deja Vu, which has meaning for Peter regarding the White Tulip.

            In the episode White Tulip, Liv says she is having Deja Vu. Peter tells her he was told that that was the universe’s way of telling her that she was in line with her “Destiny”. Peter then went on to say that he never gets it. We as an audience had just recently found out that he was from the other universe, so we thought oh yeah, not in line with his destiny because he is in the wrong universe.

            Fast forward to the final frame of the show.

            Peter gets the White Tulip. At first he looks perplexed, but then he has this look of recall (deja Vu), then the camera switches to a close shot of his face as he looks right into the camera as if to tell us; He gets it, he’s is in line with “Destiny”, all is right in the world for Peter Olivia and their family.

            Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

            • g33k says

              I’m in total agreement – as soon as me and my friends were watching the final scene one of us screamed out “HE REMEMBERS SOMETHING!” I couldn’t figure out what he could be remembering, but experiencing deja vu. That fits in perfectly! Thank you Rick!!! I was trying to figure that out!!!

              Like: Thumb up 5

      • _lost_stef_ says

        Awesome i can not wait to read your thoughts.

        p.s ever since i listened to your acoustic version of Lost Life & Death its been stuck in my head and is now possibly making me even sadder but in a good way lol

        Like: Thumb up 3

  39. says

    I am thinking that Walter will be so happy, thrill and excited, like a kid in the candy store, when he meets and works with those scientists in Oslo, Norway in 2167 ….. creating a new breed of super-human …… I am happy for him!

    And who know if he might pull a “DOC” (as in “Back to the Future”), inventing a garbage fueled DeLorean DMC-12 to travel back in time to check out his son, daughter-in-law and cute grand daughter from time to time.

    Gil

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      Ooooohhh, you know they could use the actor who played December as the scientist in Norway if some future version of Fringe ever shows that. The “Original 12″ very well could be the first 12 Observers ever made (maybe each of them is part of the Norwegian Science Team that will soon meet Michael and Walter!) and since December seemed to be in charge he could be the main guy. But, of course his #2 would be Michael Cerveris.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • SissySiri says

        Today’s Norwegians appear to be thinking about the distant future. The Svalbard Global Seed Vault in Norway is a secure seed bank located on the Norwegian island of Spitsbergen and functions to preserve a wide variety of plant seeds in an underground cavern. The seed vault is an attempt to provide insurance against the loss of seeds in genebanks, as well as a refuge for seeds in the case of large-scale regional or global crisis. I can see Walter having a hand in what future seeds to preserve since he seems to like plants so much. ;-)

        I agree, like a kid in a candy store.

        Like: Thumb up 1

  40. Amanda says

    I’m happy and sad, but mostly happy.

    The end of a journey, for them, for us…. I’m alredy missing all of this.
    Unfortunately I got to know this site a little too late, but better than ever, at least I have the opportunity to enjoy this last part of this 5 year journey with you guys, it was truly a great honor to me. :)

    Like: Thumb up 6

    • SissySiri says

      Amanda, That is perfect what you wrote.

      I have watched Fringe from the Pilot on, but I feel the same way you do as I am sure many on this site feel as well. Thank you.

      Like: Thumb up 0

  41. Scott42444 says

    So, real quick.

    Did that whole machine that Dontember built basically get rendered useless? I know that the magnet and the beacons (and Michael of course) were used but the rocks and all that jazz weren’t needed? They used the corridor instead? I have to rewatch but if that is the case that makes a couple episodes of this season ALMOST worthless. That kinda sucks. I really wish the writing was a little bit….tighter. I guess. I don’t want to complain, it’s just over now and it could have had more ooooomph to some of the earlier episodes. Of course, I don’t think I could have done better so who am I to talk?

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • says

      Speaking of Corridor, I think we got our explanation as to why the whole antimatter bomb didn’t obliterate the 2609 corridor like it was supposed to. September said that they would have to reverse the polarity of the corridor because it was set to send and not to receive. So since the shipment from 5×05 was set to send, then it never received that antimatter bomb. Thus Peter and Walter “Did not know what they did not know.”, as they say.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Amanda says

      What I really missed was more scenes after the reset… that was too fast, just a little more than 2 minutes… not fair.

      Like: Thumb up 6

    • LastManInSpace says

      I had this thought too and it bugged me a little until I realized that it gave Astrid the opportunity to save the day. And it might be a cop-out but I’m cool with that

      Go Astro, FTW!

      Like: Thumb up 4

    • Anne says

      They did use the machine no? It’s just that the heart of it lost its energy over the years so they needed something else to trigger the machine. This other thing was the cube. So no worries, the stones and everything was still used here. Unless I’m wrong of course, just like everyone else, I probably need to rewatch to wrap my head around all this. By the way Scott42444, interesting theories and thoughts you had on this finale

      Like: Thumb up 3

  42. DeepRunner says

    That. Was. Incredible.

    Awesome.

    And Heart-wrenching.

    From the top:

    * Go Michael for giving Windmark a nosebleed and a blotted splotched right eye

    * The Universe Window! Brilliant, Ash Can, Brilliant.

    * Walter as the Cortexiphan pusher

    * The Lincoln and Olivia scenes…mmm…not sold.

    * Olivia going between dimensions was cool.

    * The Faux O was understated but might have been because she was older.

    * Lincoln with a gun. Poster child for why some people should not have them. Just sayin’…

    * I made choices, you made choices, we all have choices, this is choice dialogue, it’s all good. (Poor Lincoln…a good guy…who is one of the good guys…just not a good guy to have around)

    * Major callback to blowing out the lights on DRJ in TEOAT when Olive took out the Observers

    * Would have been cool if The Faux O had told Olive, “Give Peter my best!” (Awk-ward…)

    * It would have been cool to see Walternate at 90.

    * December!!!!!!!!!!! I had wondered if/when he would come back. Although he seemed more sympathetic to Windmark than September. On mission. December, though, was in the “December” of his life, as he was hanged like a side of beef in a meat locker

    * References to August!!!!!! Next to September, the most human and humane of the group.

    * September in the lab. Trying to make his scientific discovery work.And failing. Sorta like…Walternate in the episode “Peter”.

    * Michael under the X-Ray machine. My, what big scalpels you have, Grandma.

    * Broyles. Simply put…When it is time for me to make my last stand…I want Broyles on my side.

    * Jean. Just. Jean.

    * Olive pancaking Windmark between cars with her Cortexiphan-fueled powers

    Now…Walter and Peter…

    Simply. The. Best. and. Most. Emotional. Scene. On. The. Show.

    Ever.

    * Walter being a paradox…Not sure I liked that explanation. The happy news is, Walter did not die. The sad news is, Walter fulfilled his promise and commitment to give himself for the cause. It was gallant. And heroic. And sad. Peter’s goodbye was emotionally charged.

    * The reset to the day in the park, nice, very nice. And we go back to the day in the park before the Observers invade.

    * The White Tulip. Fitting that Peter got the White Tulip.

    * Callbacks-The Germ Slug, the Monarch Butterflies, Snakeheads,

    These are things from the top of my head. More later.

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • JM says

      Nice thoughts. Completely didn’t buy Lincoln and Olivia either as a couple or “friends reunited” the chemistry between altlinc and Olivia when she is pretending to be altlivia in season 3 is the only time they have worked as platonic partners or romantic, their chemistry was incredibly OTT from the beginning of season 4 onwards, and even in the last episode they still grated my nerves (check line: stop checking out my young ass)

      Like: Thumb up 5

      • Scott42444 says

        I thought that Lincoln was feeling guilty for leaving the “Blue” universe when everything went to shit afterwards. He is the type who like to help.

        Also, it’s “Gene”, not “Jean” to DeepRunner. No biggie, it’s just that “Gene” is more fitting (no pun intended) since it is like genetic or genome.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

        • DeepRunner says

          Thanks. I realized my mistake when I read a different review. I had always understood the cow to be female and thought the name was a homophonic play on words.

          Like: Thumb up 0

  43. Bryan says

    What do we think about this? What we see at the end of the show (Olivia, Etta, and Peter at the park) is a result of all the events we’ve seen up until that point. Nothing is different.

    Walter originally makes a tape after the invasion explaining to Peter that if his plan to defeat the Observers works, he will seemingly disappear from existence on what would have been the day of the invasion. However, now that we’ve reset the clock, Walter disappears before ever having made the tape in the first place (not to mention that there would have been no reason to make it the first place if there was no invasion.) So, chalk this one up to Walter taking too much LSD and not realizing that there would be no way for Peter to see this in the past. This is fine because Peter watches it with Walter in the future anyway.

    The events of the future take place just as we saw them take place and we zip back in time to Olivia, Etta, and Peter at the park which is a result of all the events we’ve seen up until that point. Nothing is different.

    My theory is that everything that happened in the future to Olivia, Peter, everyone actually happened and that all of that knowledge is still in their subconscious. We’ve just rewound the tape and made some edits along the way, but it’s all still there.

    At some point before this day at the park Walter sends Peter the white tulip in the mail just incase anything were to ever happen to him. The white tulip carried with it a lot of emotion for Walter and when Peter opens it his subconscious is unlocked and he remembers everything.

    Thoughts?

    Like: Thumb up 6

    • 134sc says

      I was thinking on similar lines.

      I think they shouldn’t have had the 2015 Walter send the White Tulip. If this is what the show is telling us, then it really doesn’t make sense. It should be the future Walter somehow sending it back in time.

      I do agree that when Peter recieves the White Tulip, something happens to him. Whether it be a flashback or his subconcious being unlocked, I believe that scene was meant to tell us that they will all remember what happened throughout this season as well as the rest of the series.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • ian says

        why does it make more sense that walter sent the tulip to Peter from the future and not before 2015? September said he gave the tulip to walter before 2015 and when walter asked where was it, he responded ‘I don’t know, you are the only one who knows that’. It is quite clear that the tulip was already missing before 2015.

        Like: Thumb up 1

    • Briar says

      I disagree. I think there are multiple universes (as seems a given in Fringe). Season 4 happened in a different timeline/universe from the three previous seasons, and season 5 ends with the restoration of *that* universe with the restoration of *that* timeline, the one where Peter was brought over and didn’t die in the Lake. Season 5 happens in an alternative timeline that now won’t happen, because Walter and Michael have returned to 2167 and will ensure that the eradication of emotion that made the (apparently) emotionless Observers (Windmark enjoyed indulging his vicious streak too much for him to be emotionless – that’s emotion at work, in him at least) won’t happen. That doesn’t mean that the “good” Observers of the original timeline won’t still be there – observing as before, with September making his crucial error at the crucial time for the whole story to start. This also restores Peter to the central role as the boy who is important – by bleeding through to the season 4 and 5 timeline, he is key to the resetting to the original timeline that restores the original Observers and effectively saves *their* world as well as our own.

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • DeepRunner says

      Your final paragraph: I thought the same thing, based on Peter’s reaction when he saw the white tulip, that a different timeline was resurfacing in his brain.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  44. Walternate says

    Okay, I’ve thought about this a little bit and it seems to connect some of the dots for me.

    Walter now has knowledge of both timelines. It is plausible that Walter, having known of the events that led up to 2015, would send someone back to do all things that September did, possibly a different iteration of September himself. Distracting Walternate, saving Peter, deleting Peter, all that. Theoretically, it could end up at the same course of events.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      That’s what I think. Walter WOULD NOT allow Peter to not experience everything. My guess is that Michael fixes it all. When you watch the episode again, watch the scene in the lab with Peter and Walter when they are watching the tape and crying and hugging. There is a strange little cut away to Michael who is just sitting there watching. My guess is that he ends up passing his memories and thoughts on to other “New and Improved: Now with Feelings!” Observers and when they inevitably are able to move through time they are able to still set into motion everything that happens.

      Because if there is no September to distract Walternate, etc.etc.etc. and on down the chain of events then there is no way that Michael is brought forward into the future (in any of the timelines, right?). Kind of like when Peter says in the Season 3 finale “Let’s just not send the machine back then” and Walter says, “No, we already have, we have too” or something to that effect. There has to be an Original 12 science team. I take that to mean they are the original observers. Probably why they are more susceptable to feelings in the first place. Also, one of them is September. If not because there is someone in Norway who is cloned then because they clone Michael and have him grow into an adult (grown Michael = September). Michael gives him the Vulcan mind meld head thing and September knows what has to be done to make sure everything that happens comes to pass.

      If you think about it, if Walter was going to play with time he would go back and just heal HIS Peter. So, there has to be someone else who is doing it.

      Like: Thumb up 3

  45. _lost_stef_ says

    I can’t bring myself to rewatch the episode yet…

    It’s like if i watch it twice the gravity of the situation will sink in even more and im not sure i am strong enough right now.

    I feel like i never want to watch another tv show ever again and just spend the rest of my days rewatching this great show.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

    • JJOday says

      I’m going to wait 6 months maybe a year before I rewatch the series (Still gonna be active and reading books and news and comics etc) but I want to let it sink in and rest for a while. It’s a beautiful ending and it deserves a mourning period.

      Like: Thumb up 5

      • SissySiri says

        Unless you want a good serious cry, don’t watch it. I watched it three times and now have a headache from crying. I missed a lot of the nuances when I watched it live, and I have to say re-watching it was a lot sadder than I originally thought.

        I would love to watch it again, but I can’t – I mean sobbing over a TV show, my friends will think my dog died or something.

        Like: Thumb up 1

        • _lost_stef_ says

          thats why im afraid, god my eyes are killing me from yesterday.

          Im planning on watching it soon, i even removed my Mascara for when i do.

          Like: Thumb up 1

  46. Mike says

    I’ve never blogged in my life, but after watching the finale of this phenomenal show, I felt, like others, that I needed more. I just wanted to say thanks to the writers and actors for the past five years of enjoyment.

    Like: Thumb up 7

  47. shidey17 says

    So now that I’ve rewatched the episode alone……I’ve had a much stronger emotional reaction to it….especially the end. It ended in a really predictable way and I’m sort of not okay with that…..but I am satisfied enough. Especially after reading some of the comments about Walter in the future and sending someone back or figuring out time travel or something like that. I’m also excited that some of this stuff could hopefully be made into books or comics or god help us all a movie. That would rock my world.

    So nothing really intelligent to say tonight….3rd time through tomorrow and then I will put something coherent together hopefully.

    BTW wasn’t OldLivia a supper hottie?!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 25

  48. _lost_stef_ says

    this sums it up

    ‘The time we had together we stole. I cheated faith to be with you and we shouldn’t have had that time together but we did and i wouldn’t change it for the world. I don’t want to say goodbye, but i will say.. I love you..

    Walter Bishop

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  49. JJOday says

    That was one of the most beautiful finales. It was moving, funny, exciting, full of references and most of all, amazing. Fringe is the amazing tale of a father willing to do anything to see those he loves. It’s a story of 2 children connected by childhood and trying to live a happy life. It’s the story of love and a family.

    Thank you for 5 years of beauty Fringe. You have left a lasting impression on my life. For that, not even alternate universes and being erased from time can change that. Keep looking up and hold your white tulips high.

    Also, I figured it out. It’s pretty obvious that they meant to create New Observers. Walter realizes that in order for Peter and Olivia to live happily, he has to distract Walternate etc etc. We still have the science team, but they are new and improved. Go through the events of the show blah blah FINALLY, Walter sends the letter back in time, Past-Walter poofs but like Walter said, it’s just for 2015 and onward, so everything still happened.

    I think the white tulip is Peter remembering everything.

    I would love it if like in Lost, they made a Walter epilogue showing A. the Newservers B. Walter enjoying the future/creating this new 12 Observers of history C. Walter sending back the tulip and D. Showing Past Walter phasing away.

    That could only take like 10 minutes. Put it on the season 5/complete box set.

    Petition!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • shidey17 says

      I agree with your thoughts (and everyone else’s) that Walter gets it. He came back or sent someone back to make sure all those things happened the way they were supposed to.

      I’m just not sure Wyman gets it. I’m glad we all have each other to figure this stuff out. Maybe we need to explain it to JW.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      I don’t agree with you joday. IMHO, Michael can’t travel through time. So the new generation of observers wouldn’t have that hability. Plus, the show said there would be no observers. without the observers, no science team (since it was the observers who sent them back in time in the first place).
      And, no , I don’t think walter sent the tulip back in time either. it was already missing before he went to the future.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  50. Marcus says

    I am still processing it all and I want to watch it again, but I am happy with it in general I suppose. Peter and Olivia live happily ever after and that is what I wanted more than anything in the end.

    As much as I enjoy science fiction I have always been able to forgive and overlook any aspects of the science of this show that does not quite make sense. For me it has always been about the characters. The themes of regret, loss, love, family, finding your place, and so on has really been what has kept me coming back. Not to mention the humor. I just love these characters and I am going to miss them dearly. There were some tearful moments. It is a real shame that this show has to end now when there are other inferior shows that seem to live on and on.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  51. JM says

    Also, plot hole:
    I thought it was established in season 3 that Fauxlivia couldnt have kids without the accelerated pregnancy because she had the same disease her sister had which meant she and the baby would die in childbirth, and considering peter being erased from the timeline shouldnt have affected this. I’d rather not go with the explanation it was “Linc’s magic semen”

    Like: Thumb up 5

    • Walternate says

      We never saw what happened in the 24 years between when they closed the bridge and 2036. They may have done the same thing for Linc/Altliv’s kid. Technology still exists.

      Like: Thumb up 4

    • Marcus says

      Could have been adopted. Don’t think it’s ever said that she gave birth to the child in the picture.

      Like: Thumb up 3

      • _lost_stef_ says

        they were more technically advanced in the altverse so it is very possible that some cutting edge medical advancement was made for women with her condition allowing her to therefore have children.

        Like: Thumb up 7

    • shidey17 says

      I was wondering about the Walternate lecturing at Harvard thing too. Wasn’t Harvard in a quarantine zone before? I guess after the bridge it could have been healed but I don’t know if that makes sense to me.

      Just the little things…..I can forgive them, but they do stand out.

      Like: Thumb up 0

      • SissySiri says

        Remember in the Altverse they were removing the buildings that were encased in amber.

        Altliv said to our Lincoln that the bridge was healing their world when he spotted the amber being removed. That is why Walternate can be lecturing at Harvard, it’s all clear, no amber. At least I think I am correct on this.

        Like: Thumb up 1

        • SissySiri says

          Correction: “Remember in the Altverse they were removing the amber that encased the buildings.” Sorry about that.

          Like: Thumb up 0

  52. ML says

    Short reaction right now since I’m so wired to write anything that makes sense.

    I just want to say that overall I LOVED it. Just so much fun to watch. Those were 2 solid episodes!
    Yes, the ending was a bit too abrupt and preditable but man, I enjoyed the heck out of those 2 hours.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  53. Walternate says

    I’m already watching old episodes that were my favorites. I watched Peter and Jacksonville last night, watching Subject 13 tonight.

    Like: Thumb up 5

    • ML says

      I watched Subject 13 the previous night. Man, such a great episode. That moment when little Olivie flashes over. So great

      Like: Thumb up 6

      • _lost_stef_ says

        this episode no doubt brings tears to my eyes every single time no matter how many times i watch it. The kids that play younger Olivia & Peter are just wonderful :D

        Like: Thumb up 3

  54. 4815162342 says

    Disappointing as hell, imho. Way too many plotholes. Not to mention, the logic behind the whole “reset the timeline plan” was so hairbrained, it was downright insulting to anyone who knows a smidgen of theoretical physics… Or has seen, I dunno, Back To The Future at that…

    And what the hell was the point of the Commander? The guy was a complete waste of space and runtime. In his place, we sure as hell could’ve used some more Sam Weiss. …Wait. He was killed off-screen. Nevermind.

    How about Scarlie? …Wait. He was written off for no damn reason.

    How about William Bell? …Wait. He was… Ok. Screw it. Well, what about John Mosley or Mr. X, or Raymond G…. Forget it. F**k it. Joel Wyman can’t sustain cohesion between his characters worth a piss. And evidently, can’t apply simple logic either.

    A lukewarm finale to an absolutely crappy season that serves as an utterly disappointing ending for what started out as an absolutely amazing series. I can’t wait to see what Wyman screws up next beyond belief!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

    • JM says

      Although i dont feel as strongly as you I agree with most of what you said the “logic leaps” ive had to make over the last two seasons have been too large

      Like: Thumb up 5

    • Ian S. says

      I agree. I loved the themes and of course the acting and visual effects in the finale, but there were so many plot holes and contrivances it lost my suspension of disbelief.

      Like: Thumb up 4

    • shidey17 says

      I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.

      I’m gonna enjoy it for what it is because I love the show, but they could have done a lot with the 13 episodes they were given this season. Most of it was just twiddling thumbs.

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • ian says

      4815, Dissapointing could be a word to describe the ending…I was so wating for a hudge surprise…didn’t happen. that is what you get for having to much expectations…

      I don’t care about plots like: charlie, wiliam bell, the commander, sam weiss, john mosley. who cares? I don’t.

      But, you do have a point with the Mr. X plot! totally forgot about that. who is he afterall? wasn’t olivia, allegedly, suppose to die?

      Like: Thumb up 2

  55. David says

    So to make sense of how Peter and Olivia are still together despite the time reset do we have to assume that Walter is the one to take September’s place to distract Walternate in 1985 and to make sure that Peter and himself will not drawn in the Lake?

    Like: Thumb up 1

    • says

      No we assume that New Enlightened Observers are created, and sent back to make sure that all the things happened as they already did, so as to reset the timeline back exactly as it was pre-invasion. Very simple actually.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      No, we are assume to believe that the 4th season reseted the timeline where Peter is brought back by Olivia and not by september. That was the point of the 4th season. No need of the observers to make peter still exist.

      Like: Thumb up 0

      • says

        But for the fourth season timeline to exist, Observers of some kind must exist. I choose to believe that New Observers were eventually created, and that they got time-travel tech too like the original ones, it is just that this tech didn’t subdue their emotional capacity, and I also choose to believe that maybe there are females in this new future too.

        Like: Thumb up 4

        • ian says

          Yes, Rick, you can chose to believe whatever you want. I agree that for the 4th season to exist the observers would have to exist. But that is a time paradox. The same thing happenned to the BBM machine (how could it exist if there is no Peter?).
          You have to understand time reset and paradoxs to accept this. It is the more simple explanation (accom’s razor principle). It makes sense to me. All the rest is just speculation over speculation. JMHO.

          Like: Thumb up 1

        • ian says

          since I can’t post on the seriable site:
          So, Rick, you finally caved into the reseted timeline idea, hun?
          And, now you are explaining it to other people without giving credit to others who actually enlightned you?
          at least say something like “I’ve read it somewhere’ or “I’ve been told”. seriously…..???

          Like: Thumb up 0

          • Rick Terry says

            What the hell are you talking about? I compose my own theories in my own head. I do read a lot of theories on here and elsewhere, but I still come up with my own, on my own. They may be inspired by other’s thoughts on things, but I assure you they are mine.

            Anyway, to clarify; No I don’t agree with your “reset timeline” theory at all, I do not want to steal your idea at all. I find the idea that a simple reset to 2015 negating the existence of the Observers, but doesn’t erase everything they did up until 2015 to be stupid.

            I have refined my theory, and here it is in its most basic form.

            There were two parallel timelines the whole time.

            1. Original timeline, that had Red Peter cured by his own father in the RedVerse, and ended up with him still meeting and falling in love with Blue Olivia as September knew was his destiny the whole time. Then they had Etta in 2012 also part of the destiny that was according to September, and all was well for them. Then in 2167 the Observers were created, and eventually came to be the only species left alive, and in 2609, they sent a team of Scientists to the past to Observer and report all of time. This is where things got funky…

            2. Due to the grandfather paradox, since the 12 science team members were sent back to the beginning of time, and so that they would not be able to interfere with their own genesis, the mere action of their time-travel created a new timeline that would play out parallel to the one they hail from. They tethered this new timeline to the original one via the beacons. This timeline is the one that September distracted Walternate, and caused Walter to have to cross over to rescue Peter, which led to the war, and the Machine, which led to the destruction of the Red in 2011, and the eventual break-down of the Blue in 2026, this led to a need to create a loop in the timeline, so as to repair the corrupted future, which in the 2nd iteration led to 2011 Peter’s consciousness accessing the past iteration’s 2026 consciousness. This led to the second iteration 2011 Peter making the different choice for balance, which was “creation” (bridge), rather than “destruction” (of RedVerse). This choice was always a choice. Much like Schrodinger’s cat Creation, and Destruction were both in superposition, just like you have both a dead cat and alive cat until you open the box. This meant the bridge was always connected to the past choice of Blue over Red it just had to be realized by Peter. This meant that the machine then broke the loop, by creating a timeline to replace the corrupted one. It this rewritten timeline, the major change was Peter drowning at Reiden Lake, this led to a new set of events leading up to 2011, then after that Red Peter’s consciousness was brought forth by Olivia’s and Walter’s love (I wish I could find a better reason for this). In this timeline, the future was now not doomed to end in 2026, so the Observers sent many more of themselves back from the Original timeline’s 2609 to this timeline’s 2015. Keep in mind that they had tethered their own timeline of origin to this new one via beacons, and other tech (think shipping corridors) Fastforward to 2036. Walter and Michael used the shipping corridor that connected both timelines together, along with his own beacons to time-travel to the 2167 of the original timeline, thus making the Oslo scientists change their actions, thus creating a new timeline from 2167 onward in the original timeline. This will have led to the creation of emotionally charged beings who would not interfere in the past eras as their once active predecessors did, thus negating all that happened in the secondary timeline except…

            To explain how the tulip got from the Amber timeline to the Original timeline, I say that it was a retro causal effect, like that of the Machine still bridging the universe without Peter existing to do so. In other words, when Walter From the Amber timeline, brought himself and Michael to 2167 of the original timeline, it created a bridge from one timeline to the other, but by negating the Observers it caused a paradox, in that there was now no causality for Walter to have done this, not to mention the fact that Michael negated his own genesis. This same paradox called for Original timeline’s Walter to cease to exist past the time of the non-invasion 2015, so that the timeline could accommodate Amber Walter in 2167. So all the events that led to Walter’s trip across timelines needed to be transferred to this original timeline from 2015′s non invasion moment onward. This means that when Peter opened the letter and saw the White tulip from the Amber timeline, he immediately understood all that had happened in the other timeline to get him, and Olivia, and Etta to this moment in time. You could even argue that He and Olivia got a download or got their other timeline memories.

            So to sum up, there were two timelines all along. One that Observers were originally from, and the vastly manipulated one that we saw through out the show. (season 1-3 Red/Blue – season 4-5 [Amber] Red/Blue). This is how the Observers never were affected by any changes made to the timeline. It took Walter crossing back into their timeline at the point of their origin to defeat them.

            My theory is that had the Observers achieved their goal, they would have totally abandoned the Original timeline and just assumed the new timeline as their new home. Then perhaps they would have made the planet uninhabitable again, and then did it all again, by creating another new timeline, and so on…

            Like: Thumb up 1

            • Surun Tunne says

              think about the scene in “the boy must live” when donald first explained the plan to them.
              when olivia said to peter “this is how we are gonna get our daughter back” peter looked very worried and wasn’t excited at all because at this time he didn’t understand how the reset would actually work, he was worried that if the observers would NEVER exist, september wouldn’t interfere walternate and therefore peter would never even meet olivia (I know that september told him in “the end of all things” that this was always their destiny but I guess at that point in the boy must live, peter doubted it…he was never the biggest believer in fate or destiny or whatever you wanna call it)

              but then, in “an enemy of fate” when he watched the tape and walter explained everything to him, he realised how exactly the reset would work (from 2015 onwards).
              so after that, he said to olivia: remember when I told you we would still have a long way to go before we see her again…it’s not that long anymore..we’re gonna see her!”
              he said that because, like I said, he now understood that the reset wouldn’t affect the past and only resets time from the point of the invasion onwards.

              and like I said in my previous post, the reason why the reset was only from 2015 onwards, is because if the observers would really NEVER have existed (or if a different, emotional kind of observers were created), michael would never have been born, hidden in the past by september and so on.

              Like: Thumb up 4

              • Rick Terry says

                That is why Michael is a paradox. He is a living paradox. Walter too is a paradox, because the Walter living in 2167 never lived there before, he was transported from another whole timeline to live there, thus his other self in 2015 had to disappear.

                One thing that I will concede is that everything DID happen, just in a different timeline, but since the people who created that different timeline were erased, then so was that timeline, but the paradox is that those erased beings had to once be alive to create the timeline so that Walter would know that he had to negate it, for the world to have a future. So it all did happen, but it only happened so that it would not happen.

                This is why I say that the tulip is a carry-over from the amber timeline. Amber Walter and Michael brought it (and the memories of all that happened in that timeline) over with them since it was the final part of the plan to be administered after the reset.

                So in other words, Red Peter naturally found his way over here for some reason, and he naturally met and impregnated Olivia over here, and they naturally went to the park in 2015, when Etta was 3 years 1 month and 5 days old. But in the original timeline we know the Observers didn’t even exist yet at this point, so there was no invasion, then they went home, and there was no white tulip, then other stuff happened, that led to the Oslo scientist creating Observers in 2167. But when Amber Walter came over to this original timeline to end the Observers he reset the original timeline, and changed the moment in 2015 for Peter Olivia and Etta in the park, they then went home, and Peter got the tulip, and all his memories of the struggle to be reset back to his destiny.

                Like: Thumb up 0

              • Rick Terry says

                Also the theory you and many others are putting forth here does not account for the preservation of the Observers origin point. In other words you are saying this is all one singe timeline that has been rewritten over a few times, but those rewrites do not negate the Observers origin point at all. That is impossible, because if they had succeeded and gotten to 2167, then if the Oslo scientists even still existed, then why would they go on to create the very beings that have plagued them for 130 years? You see?

                So a simple reset of the amber timeline that allows the uncreated Observers to exist in the past of the timeline, when those very beings came from a negated future of that timeline will not work. By negating their origin point to prevent the invasion, you must also negate everything that happened after their origin point from their now erased perspective. That means all the time travel they did was undid, but since you (Walter4 and Michael) undid all their (Observers) time travel by using their (Observers) undid equipment, but you (Walter and Michael) are physically still there to see out your (Walter and Michael) actions, and plan, so any part of that plan must also transfer over retroactively, to 2015 rewriting 2015 onward and erasing original timeline Walter from that point onward too.That means all the memories of those things from Peter, Olivia, Etta, Broyles, Nina etc… Will be remembered by each of those characters as having been done. They will all remember having been invaded and having to sacrifice their lives for the greater good, but they will never have to physically experience it ever.

                Like: Thumb up 1

            • ian says

              NO.
              Your own quotes:
              “But for the fourth season timeline to exist, Observers of some kind must exist. I choose to believe that New Observers were eventually created, and that they got time-travel tech too like the original ones”;
              “In Fringe, every instance that time was reset a new timeline was birthed. We had the season 1-3 timeline reset to Amber after the Observer erased Peter from the history, it was a totally new set of events leading up to Peter’s resurgence. Then we had the post invasion reset. Yet another totally new set of events,(left up to us to fanfic about) that led to Red Peter meeting Blue Olivia, and them conceiving Etta in 2012″.
              If a new timeline was birthed, like you said, then no need of somekind of observer existing! Your 2 quotes are contradictory, OR you STILL don’t grasp the idea of a reseted timeline! If the latter is the case, than forget my previous post.
              Who said anything about only one single universe??? not me… 2 universes always existed.
              your theory is so tripping! I highly recommend that you REALLY read about occam’s razor principle.

              Like: Thumb up 0

              • Rick Terry says

                I know Occam’s Razor, and in fact your theory is assuming a lot more complicated things than mine is. Mine is as simple an explanation for all the problems the show left us with than any other I have read.

                I highly recommend that you re-read my most recent posts. I said right at the beginning that I have since revised my theory. That means that in the last month since the finale I have changed my theory. Forget all the posts I made right after the finale aired (the ones you have been replying to).

                I have a right to change my views and revise them as I think upon stuff do I not? I never said anything about 2 universes NOT existing. I simply said that there were two timelines the whole time. Timelines and Universes are two different things. Of course there are two universes, why would I ever argue against that fact? I am saying that it is impossible for there to be one long reset timeline throughout the show. There had to be one timeline that never got reset until Walter crossed over to it, and then the other timeline that was continually reset to conform to the Observer’s plans.

                This is what my point of contention is with you:

                In your opinion the ending consists of the amber timeline resetting at the 2015 mark. You are suggesting that by going into the future of the amber timeline to 2167, that Walter and Michael undid the Observer’s existence, and thus reset the timeline to 2015. But at the same time you are suggesting that everything before 2015 in the park remained the same, Observers and all. I am saying that this notion is completely ridiculous, and makes no sense whatsoever. Please tell me how could the pre invasion events still be the same? By negating the existence of the Observers it would erase all of their time-travel, and past meddling in the timeline. So this makes your notion flawed. Also amber timeline’s 2167 is not the origin point of the Observers, because they will have been in the amber timeline for 130 years before that point, so it is not conceivable that the Oslo scientists would be compelled to create them since they are already there. You see? Also not to mention that the Observers were in the process of slowly exterminating humanity by pumping carbon monoxide into the atmosphere. It was even said that this was beginning to shorten human life-span down to 45 years, so why would those scientists in Oslo even still exist 130 years later in 2167? Do you see the issues now? So that brings me to my theory…

                In my theory, the timeline(s) that we have been following throughout the entire show (Blue/Red set, that was rewritten into the [Amber] Blue/Red set, or season 1-3, that was rewritten for season 4-5 if you like) were a secondary timeline that the Observers created via time-travel (Grandfather Paradox principle is at work here, It is impossible for the Observers to go into their own timeline’s past due to The Grandfather Paradox, google it if you need a better explanation). In this secondary timeline they could do whatever they wanted to do with time-travel antics, because it is separate from their Timeline of Origin. These two separate timelines are connected only by beacons, which allows the shipping corridors to exist between them. It was via these shipping corridors that Walter was able to gain access to the timeline of origin of the Observers, and it was due to him having 2 beacons, and having the mathematical formulas that he was able to go to 2167 in that timeline of origin of the Observers. It was this very act coupled with showing Michael to the scientists in Oslo, that erased the Observers and all of their antics from the amber (secondary) timeline. In fact it totally erased the amber (secondary) timeline itself, since that (secondary) timeline was a creation of the original 12 time-traveling to the past. That now didn’t happen because Walter erased it. That is the paradox.

                You are the one that doesn’t seem to understand paradoxes. The entire paradox is that Walter from a now non-existent timeline was the one to erase the Observers who created his timeline in the first place. Also part two of the paradox is that it was the Observers who caused him to actively attempt to erase them, so by erasing them he became a paradox. This also works for Michael. Michael’s existence stems from that same 2167 point, but since he was key to stopping that origin point from happening, he became a paradox as well. So for he and Walter to exist in the now reset timeline of origin the Observers came from, it means that Amber Walter replaces original timeline Walter from 2015 (except he is now in 2167) onward. It means that a never existent Michael just begins to exist from 2015 (except he is also now in 2167) onward, it means that the actions that Walter and the Fringe team did in 2015 of the Amber timeline including the White tulip and the tape also begins to exist from 2015 onward. So this means that when Peter sees the tulip, he is recalling all of what they went through to reset the timeline. One could argue that Olivia, Astrid, Nina, Broyles, etc. all began to recall everything they went through to get the timeline reset. Do you understand what I am saying now.

                You are so hung up on trying to catch me in some kind of lie or something that you seem to think I am involved in, that you are not seeing the flaws in your theory.

                Please if you are going to respond, then respond to this theory and forget my other ones, that I admit were flawed, or better yet, unrefined at the time.

                Like: Thumb up 3

                • ian says

                  LOL!!, you are completely crazy!!! You think you make more sense than: amber universe was a reseted timeline.

                  I will only reply to you 2 more things:

                  You still don’t understand that reseted timelines are NOT SUPPOSED to make sense: they are paradoxes! (which you still don’t get)

                  You need to revise your ‘new’ theory. it STILL is the more complicated explanation, not the simplier one.

                  and I won’t reply to you anymore (I just thought for a second you had come to your senses…I was wrong. my bad).

                  Like: Thumb up 1

                  • Rick Terry says

                    Really? I’ll have to go read that. But not particularly, depending on the context of what he is calling Observers. I’ve been waiting for him to come out of radio silence, so i’ll have to go do some twitter searching.

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                  • Rick Terry says

                    After reading the tweet, and seeing as it has no context to it, just a blanket statement, that Observers are “out there”, Then I would have to stick with my current theory.

                    To explain:

                    JW saying Observers are out there could mean that there are still Observers, but they are a new breed the likes of Michael. (I like this explanation best)

                    Or it could mean that with there being a multiverse, and every imaginable possibility, then there are still bound to be Observers somewhere, just not bothering these characters anymore. Or it could mean that I am totally wrong, and that he just negated the ending of his show, because he is claiming that the plan didn’t work. Or there is a missing piece of the puzzle that will be revealed in September’s Notebook.

                    Like: Thumb up 1

    • Patrick Bateman says

      The truth is that there is no basis for explaining this at all, although people here and elsewhere will swear to you that it all makes perfect sense.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • Surun Tunne says

        I have already said this over at seriable a few weeks ago but I would like to say it again here:

        the first 4 seasons still happened exactly as we have seen it because after the reset, walter still made the plan with donald, he knew about the invasion and what he would have to do, so he still made the tape and sent the white tulip to peter.
        the observers ceased to exist from 2015 onwards because if there would never have been observers there would also be no michael…but michael was responsible for the erasure of the observers in 2167.
        so walter and michael have to live out the rest of their lives in the future so that there will never be an invasion but the observers still have to exist until 2015 because if there wouldn’t be observers there would also be no michael who could stop the scientist from creating the observers…it’s a paradox.
        and the fact that peter got the white tulip at the end is proof of that.

        so yes, I do think that it makes sense in the world of fringe.

        thank you and have a nice day! :)

        Like: Thumb up 4

        • ML says

          boy, do I miss Fringe talk. :(

          I watched the finale a number of times now and I really wish Fox had given us a 2 hr finale. It just felt too abrupt for a finale.
          Or Wyman should have planned the eps out better where it didn’t feel so abrupt.

          Like: Thumb up 1

          • Surun Tunne says

            I have also watched the finale countless times already :)

            I don’t know, I liked how fast everything played out at the end..it was very tense, full of great scenes and moments and kept me on the edge of my seat.
            I don’t think it would have been as exciting if it would’ve been dragged out more.

            I miss fringe talk too…

            Like: Thumb up 1

            • ML says

              When you compare the finale to something like the Lost or BSG finale, they gave their fans more time to spend with the characters at the end.
              I wish we had seen more of our characters after the reset. Everything just happened too quickly and for a series finale it felt like something was missing. I think it needed a montage at the end, something for us to become emotionally invested in this being the series finale.
              I’m not saying the Lost finale was better(we know how the Lost finale disappointed those looking for answers) but it did hit me much more emotionally than Fringe did.

              Like: Thumb up 1

          • DeepRunner says

            I likewise miss the Fringe talk.

            I am going to take one more at-bat on this, since I have watched the finale a couple of times since The Last Night Of The Series (may it long live in caps), plus some other eppys. These are the things I would like to have seen different, or at least addressed during the finale and, indeed during the season:

            * Olivia deserved a bigger role in Season 5. Period. They didn’t sunset her role so much as move it to the background. This may have been the Walter Season, since it was his plan, and his move in the finale to go into the future. But the equal footing that The Big Three had in the previous seasons seemed…mmm…uneven, especially where Olivia is concerned. I know there were 13 episodes and they had a lot of turf to cover, but still, the story was always about Our Olive.

            * By doing the ending the way he did, Wyman wrecked the Zero Event, blew it out so much that even dental records would not have sufficed. I will never budge on this point. No Observers, no September, no “Walternate distracted.” From that single event flowed all the goodness of the previous episodes and the series. December rightly said, and many, many fans have agreed, that eliminating the Observers fundamentally alters how things would have turned out. Yes, a million times yes, it was a good bit of storytelling. I liked the finale, and I, as a HUGE fan, was happy with Season 5, generally speaking.

            But by having the reset only go back to 2015, unanswered was the key question: How did Peter get to the BlueVerse? Walter would not have had a reason to go over, because Walternate would most likely have found the cure. Wyman did not merely reset time. He rewrote the story.

            Of course, having said I will budge on my point, I also observe, as did Spock, that only Nixon could go to China.

            * It would have been great if Walter’s Blue Timeline memories were restored earlier than Episode 10. He earned it. He could have remembered his fun times and experiences with Olivia, Ash Can, and even Nina. In the Blue Timeline, he and Nina were closer (I have previously stated that it was possible they were at one time romantically involved or at least great pals/siblings [not so much Westley and Buttuh-kwuhp as Harry and Hermione]. His experiences with Abner in the first three seasons made his statement in the finale “You know how to calm me. You always were good at that.” seemed to have more Blue Timeline loaded in it. He was a crazed man in the Amber timeline, and I am not sure he would have said those words if he had not had his memories restored.

            * It is a shame that Astro and Broyles, so far as we know, did not get their Blue Timeline memories back. They may be the only ones who did not in the BlueVerse. It would have been nice for them to get them back. Sort of like the last thing to happen before Walter went into the shipping lane with Michael.

            * Why was there no interplay between September and Peter in the finale, even if only for a couple of minutes? It would have been a nice callback to TEOAT. Remember, it was September who saved Peter and Walter, it was September who said that Peter was important, it was September who wiped Peter from the timeline, it was Peter who found the beacon and unlocked the Universe, thus ending September’s banishment by the other Observers…which leads me to….

            * So…if at the end of Season 4, when September warns Walter that the Observers were coming…how did he know? In 513, he only tells December that they did not know the true purpose of their being here until it was (I would guess) too late.

            I have always thought this was the BEST. SCI-FI. SHOW. EVER. And I will continue to do so. These are just things that would have, if addressed, made me a bit more satisfied.

            Like: Thumb up 2

            • Surun Tunne says

              “* So…if at the end of Season 4, when September warns Walter that the Observers were coming…how did he know? In 513, he only tells December that they did not know the true purpose of their being here until it was (I would guess) too late.”

              he just said: “when we first came, we did not know..”
              when he said: “they are coming” he obviously did, he just didn’t know how to defeat them at that point

              Like: Thumb up 2

            • ian says

              Deep runner: I’m getting tired of this. NO Wyman didn’t rewrite the entire story, he only rewrote it from season 4 beyond. Everything that happenned before is unaffeted!!!
              The new reseted timeline occurred in the amber timeline ONLY!!! In the amber universe, it was stablished that there was only one observer intervention (distracting waLternate: yes walternate was still distracted). That still happenned!!!
              BLUE PETER STILL EXISTS BECAUSE OLIVIA BROUGHT HIM BACK, NOT AN OBSERVER (that was a big point of the 4th season).
              I guess you have to rewatch the 4th season…

              Like: Thumb up 0

              • Surun Tunne says

                I am also getting a little bit tired of this :)
                I think the only thing that’s maybe worth discussing is how exactly the reset from 2015 onwards worked…but it is clear to me that wyman did not reset the entire show

                Like: Thumb up 1

                • ian says

                  yes, Surun. I would also like to be discussing the repercussions of the new reset, not the old ones.
                  How do you think the relationship between walter and peter became after the 2015 reset? How did walter dissapear from peter’s life? did he actually exist? and the tulip?
                  Would love to hear your theories.

                  Like: Thumb up 0

              • DeepRunner says

                I don’t recall saying that Peter was brought back by an Observer. I DID say that September saved Walter and Peter, but that was at Reiden Lake in 1985.

                I appreciate your concern for my lack of knowledge for Season 4. I had watched it extensively prior to season 5 and watched it again in season 5. Just sayin’…

                I have always loved the show, and yeah it may be nitpicking…but the great thing about discourse and debate is understanding. And I have always enjoyed this community. Even thems that growl at me sometimes. ;)

                Like: Thumb up 4

                • ian says

                  Deep runner, I didn’t say You said that “peter was brought back from an observer”. (that was confusing). I was just explaining ‘how’ peter was still in the amber universe, despite the non existence of the observers.
                  I didn’t mean to demean you…If I did, I apologize. Think about it this way: every other thing that you said, about the show, that I didn’t contradict, I most generally agree.
                  Usually, I only respond to things I disagree.
                  BUT, if you nitpick any show you will probably find some flaws. Nothing is perfect.
                  That was my point.
                  Please ignore, Rick’s post about me!

                  Like: Thumb up 0

                  • DeepRunner says

                    Agreed, Ian, that nitpicking leads to flaw-finding. I was just trying to say what would have been a little more satisfying for me. Wyman, et al did not close things out as tightly as I would have liked them.

                    And I have been around these parts long enough for people to know that I could NEVER be offended, especially when it comes discussing our favorite show. ;-)

                    I am just eager to see what’s next for the cast. I think they all (maybe with the exception of John Noble) need to take a break and look for something that is different from what Fringe was, because the saddest thing would be for them to become typecast/pigeon-holed. So I don’t wanna see Anna Torv as a cop/Federal agent, I don’t wanna see Joshua Jackson as Pacey/Peter Bishop II, I don’t wanna see Jasika Nicole as The Helpful Lab Assistant with three lines and fewer seconds of screen time (she deserves something bigger and better), I don’t wanna see Lance Reddick as Broyles Redux.

                    Like: Thumb up 2

                    • ian says

                      Deep runner, you are a true diplomat (you should consider this as a career).
                      and yes, the show should have left us with less especulation.

                      Like: Thumb up 0

    • Omniscient_Jay says

      So, I have skimmed over this particular discussion thread, and figured I would offer some thoughts. I’ve discussed many of these things over at the forums (where I am a more recognizable face) – forum posting is more versatile formatting-wise than comment sections, but I will try my hand at it nonetheless, especially since I’ve been meaning to become more involved in the Fringe Bloggers discussion community for quite some time (I’ve been a hardcore lurker and follower since S2, IIRC).

      On the subject of the fate of the Observers, the series finale Reset, and whether it all checks out, there are various things worth considering. After much reflection, the central issue, I find, is that the show said that The Plan would do one thing, but then executed it in a way that seemed to contradict the implied ramifications of said Plan (and by “The Plan”, I mean the Walter/September anti-Observer Michael-centric plan).

      On paper, The Plan entailed bringing Michael to February 20th, 2167 CE, so as to alter history from that point onward; instead of taking an evolutionary route in which emotive potential was suppressed to augment rational potential (giving rise to the posthuman beings we knew as Observers), by having future scientists study Michael – a perfect synthesis of rational/emotive capacity that transcends the bounds of either – they will find a way to advance human evolution in a manner that will allow for the preservation and augmentation of intellect, but also maintain and augment emotive potential (as a side note, I have come to refer to these post-Michael posthumans as “Michaelites”).

      This would have the consequence of undoing the causal chain of Observerkind, which spans 2167-2609 CE – by having their species-wide Origin Point of 2167 rewritten, the Observers as we have seen them would cease to exist, and all of their past actions throughout space and time would be erased.

      We have three major groups of Observerkind, who would all be subjected to this erasure. The first group, which is the largest one, includes all Observers dwelling in the 27th Century at the moment of Plan enactment. As S5 showed, the Invaders were in the process of readying 21st Century Earth for mass relocation; had The Plan failed and the Invaders succeeded, the remaining Observers in 2609 would have presumably shifted over to 2036, their new permanent home now established. This group of Observers would be erased in the execution of The Plan, and while we didn’t witness their erasure onscreen, it is fair to assume that they were indeed erased.

      The next group consists of the Invaders, the Observer forces who were deployed to 2015 to establish control of the planet and begin preparations for mass relocation. The Invaders, products of the 2167-2609 causal chain, would be erased once The Plan was executed. And that is what we saw; the Invaders were wiped away, and as a result, the Invasion and all Invader actions and instances post-2015 were removed from history.

      The problem comes with the third group – the twelve members of the Science Team. They are Observers, their causality tethered to the 2167 Origin Point. As such, they too would (or should) be subject to The Plan’s effects – they themselves would cease to exist, and all of their actions and instances throughout space and time, from the Beginning of All Things to the End of All Things, would be undone. Given that S4 history was in effect, this would extend to all of their pre-1985 historically recorded presences, the 1985 Lab mistake, all of the 1985-2011 Science Team sightings (see episode 4.10’s Observer Room), and all Science Team instances between 2012 (4.08) and 2036 (5.13). In 5.13, December himself confirms that The Plan will undo them all, and September doesn’t disagree, lending credence to the notion.

      However, in the execution of the Reset, the show presented a different picture. By all accounts, it appears as though S4 history spanning 1985-2015 was perfectly preserved, Science Team instances and all. There are three elements at play by 2015 that existed in S4 history prior to the original Invasion Point, and that nonetheless exist post-Reset 2015:

      -Peter/Olivia/Etta at Central Park
      -The White Tulip
      -Walter’s Farewell Tape

      The first element can be worked into an Observer-free existence quite fine. If Red Peter survived and lived on in the Red World – as would have happened had September not interfered – the two worlds could well have interacted, and Red Peter and Blue Olivia could have met, even having a girl named Henrietta; in 4.14, September noted that a P/O union would set things back to the way things used to be. This scenario would in fact comprise the Original Timeline, the natural history that existed prior to Science Team intervention, and which would have led to the 2167 Origin Point that later spawned Observerkind.

      So that can be accounted for. The problem is with the latter two elements.

      Both the White Tulip and the Farewell Tape are products of The Plan; Walter wanted to leave Peter signs that he was okay, despite having been displaced in time due to the consequences of The Plan. However, the existence of the White Tulip and Farewell Tape themselves require the formation of The Plan, the threat of Invasion, and September, who proposed and formulated the foundation of The Plan in the first place.

      But without Invaders, there would be no Invasion; without the threat of Invasion, there would be no need for The Plan; and without The Plan, there would be no need to secure the Tulip and create the Tape.

      And without September, there would be no Invasion, because the Science Team would not have existed to be scouts for Invasion Points; without September, the White Tulip would never have been secured and carried over into S4 history. In fact, without the Science Team, the S1-S3 and S4 histories would never have occurred.

      And yet, these two elements clearly exist post-Reset, as the finale showed. The White Tulip was received by Peter; because Walter sent it before the original Invasion Moment, it was still sent to Peter’s house, and likewise, the Tape was presumably left at the Lab, where Peter and the gang would eventually travel to in search of missing Walter, in turn finding the Tape he left behind for them.

      So, it seems that S4 as we have seen it was preserved beat-for-beat. There was still Science Team presence throughout 1985-2012, September still underwent his S4 loop and made all of his appearances (4.01-4.08-4.14-4.15-4.22), the whole Neil Chung-September’s Rod affair of 4.11 would have occurred, the Science Team drama concerning the search for a rogue September still happened, and September still worked on The Plan with Walter over 2012-2015.

      This is the point of conflict. The Plan said it would undo all Observer actions. Why did it then only work against the Invaders and the Future-Dwellers, and not the Science Team? Why was 1985-2015 history preserved in full, untouched by the Reset?
      There are two possibilities. Either this is a massive plot hole/narrative oversight/logistics gaffe on the part of Wyman and the writing team of S5 (Fury, Schapker, Roland), or there is something at work that can reconcile this discontinuity, something that cannot be gleaned by literal, face value examination of the endgame sequence.

      Which of these is true? Unless the writers were to come out someday and make things clear one way or the other, it will forevermore be a mystery. That leaves us with the room to decide for ourselves the explanation that suits us best. Of course, if one decides to deem this whole affair as a failure in writing/plotting (a valid course of action, mind), the discussion ends there, so we’ll suppose the latter is the case.

      So far, I have encountered a handful of frameworks that seek to address and reconcile the S4 historical preservation/Observer erasure dissonance. The downside to all of them is that because the show didn’t explore the Reset any further than showing the immediate consequences in 2015, one is no more or less valid or probable than the other, seeing as the show will never prove or disprove any of them; it is a matter of choosing which one you prefer.

      -In one, the Michaelites send their own time-travelling unit to the 1985-2015 period, recreating all (and I do mean ALL) Science Team instances during that time. This includes:

      – interrupting Walternate in 1985
      – Dropping tech at Reiden for Neil Chung to find decades later (4.11)
      –Showing up at various events to be recorded by the FBI (4.10)
      –Appearing to Olivia in the 4.08 timeframe to warn her of her future death, which allows her to resolve the case of 4.10
      –Appearing in the 4.14-4.15 period to give important information to Peter
      –Appearing in 4.22 to be a part of Bell’s Activation Tests for Olivia, and again to warn Walter of the Invasion
      –Working on The Plan over 2012-2015, which means securing Michael, securing the White Tulip and Enveloppe, and so on

      The reason the Michaelites would so this is so that they could preserve the causal chain that they depend on to exist (S4 history leading up to The Plan’s formation). This raises certain questions, like how the Michaelites could have gained the original White Tulip and Envelope if the original S1-S3 is lost by the time they come to exist. It also doesn’t quite answer how Michael could still be around – he is still an Observer tethered to the 2167 Origin Point. Can his pre-2015 instances still exist due to his centrality in the Reset’s execution? Can the precise reason be derived, or is it a case of “Paradox Did It”?

      -In another scenario, we have Branching Timeline Models, in which the whole Fringe saga is strung out across multiple branching and parallel timelines. In this framework, the causality of it all should check out, since we have multiple non-interfering time streams across which everything is spread. However, I have seen multiple and competing interpretations of branching timeline models; as of yet, I have yet to come across one that seems to provide a solution for all existing issues.

      And of course, we also have two other variables. One is how rewrites fit into all this. We saw one rewrite occur in the S1-S3/S4 transition (possibly again in the endgame Reset). If we have branching timelines, how come, in the S3-S4 rewrite, a new timeline was not created? Instead, we have the physical “stuff” of S1-S3 history being remolded into its S4 form. If the S1-S3 timeline still physically existed somewhere “out there”, then Peter’s Search For Home arc in S4 would have had merit to it, as he was trying to return to his timeline of origin; however, September invalidated Peter’s theory in 4.15, invoking a Same Universe, Different Timeline principle (i.e. there was nowhere for Peter to physically “go back” to).

      The second, albeit more minor variable, is in the unconfirmed notion of Fringe operating in a branching timeline system. I suppose you could say that such a system is necessary to explain the preservation of 2167-2609 despite multiple pre-2167 temporal incursions, but with this being a fictional narrative, any internally consistent solution could do. With Fringe having not clearly outlined its spatio-temporal mechanics, we will likely never know, and there will likely never be one definitive go-to answer as a result.

      -We also have the Paradox Ex Machina solution, in which 2015-2036 history was preserved because, well, it just was. It’s a “paradox”, so it is naturally a counter-intuitive setup. But it is all too easy to defer to the word “paradox” as the self-evident incontestable answer to things.

      It should be clear that a “paradox” refers to situations that don’t make causal sense within a linear system. For instance, the S1-S3 Loop involved a Predestination Paradox; Walter had to send the Machine back, because if he doesn’t, it would never have been in the past in the first place (so he would have nothing to send anyway). This doesn’t seem to make much sense, if we examine things purely from a linear, A-B-C past/future standpoint, but if we look at the Loop as a whole, we see that everything checks out; for in truth, within the Loop, everything is happening all at the same time, and as per predestination, everyone has already done what they will do anyway, whether or not they are conscious of the fact (like Walter in 2026, who did become aware).

      The S4 Preservation VS Non-Observer Outcome is certainly a paradox, in that it makes little to no sense within a linear, causal framework (or at the least, is very counter-intuitive). But as with the S1-S3 Loop, if one were to step back and view things not from a linear angle, but from a non-linear, encompassing one, things should work out fine. Therefore, the “It’s A Paradox, Deal With It” notion isn’t actually a solution to the Reset; it is merely describing an observable fact, and there is the implied onus of explaining how the Reset is structured from non-linear viewpoints. Of course, one is surely free to stand by a Paradox Did It outcome anyway and think nothing more of it, but it is not as satisfactory.

      Now, one possibility in this regard is in the Meta-Loop framework, in which all the historical permutations we have seen comprise a massive multi-timeline loop. This is similar to the Branching Timeline model, but not quite; in a branching timeline model, all histories exist simultaneously in real-time, whereas in a Meta-Loop, there is only one timeline in effect, yet in this meta-temporal plane, all past and future histories are strung out. With nothing confirming or denying this meta-time framework, it consists of another potential solution.

      ….Granted, I have skimmed much of the above discussion thread outlining theories (and have certainly not helped myself in adding to the walls of text :P), but I would imagine that the theories currently being discussed can all fit, if loosely, into one of the categories or frameworks outlined above (Michaelite Preservation, Branching Timelines, Paradoxal Preservation, Meta-Loops, etc.).

      As for myself, my position is none of the above. I have yet to find a framework that adequately accounts for all of the issues I have thus far raised, and so can side with none. However, I can neither dismiss the whole thing as a plot hole with true confidence, as I can never know for certain whether the writers deliberately or accidentally neglected to think things through all the way.

      Though I suppose you could qualify a “plot hole” as simply being a failure on the writer’s part to make things clear – which, at this point, certainly applies given the multitudes of conflicting post-finale interpretations. In such a light, I would be keener to dismiss the whole thing as a failure in (time-travel) logistics. If there is someone here at Fringe Bloggers who does have a framework that resolves everything, however, then by all means share it, or direct me to posts in which they are discussed.

      Well, there goes my first significant contribution to a Fringe Bloggers page. As a habit developed in my forum escapades, I tend to write very lengthy pieces, but that is only because I seek to be thorough. I any case, I hope my observations offers some fodder in this ongoing discourse about Space and Time and Whatever. :)

      Oh, and lastly, I suppose that as a de facto emissary from Fringe-Forum, I would invite any Fringe Bloggers reader or user, regular or new, to visit or even join Fringe-Forum; evidently, activity has begun to dwindle post-finale (as I imagine it has also dwindled here at FB), but there are plenty of discussions old and ongoing to observe and participate in. ;)

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      • ian says

        OK, omniscient. you clearly understand all the theories that try to explain the show. credits. You have a good point about the non linear timelines. But that is not what the show is about and has never been hinted at that way.
        I will try to explain my viewing “It’s A Paradox, Deal With It” in a more detailed way. Imagine the simpliest timetravel: You, Omniscient, in timeline “A”, goes back in time to kill hitler. the paradox is immediately created after you accomplish that. If now there is no hitler, you wouldn’t need to have travelled back in time to kill him. NO hitler, no timetravel = paradox. The most acceptable explanation science fiction gives us (yes, science fiction, not reality), is that it would create a new timeline where there would be no hitler. It IS A NEW TIMELINE “B”! Imagine an “Y” rupture. NOt “Back to the future film” like (least accepted timetravelling theory)
        So, applying this theory to the show: 1) september erased peter by not saving him in the lake; 3) no peter, no BBM = paradox; 3) consequence: new timeline “B” (= 4th season or amber universe). Remember: September still interrupted Walternate.
        OK, now, in the new timeline ‘B’, I do ANOTHER timetravel and kill you (the person that killed hitler), immediately creating a new timeline “C” (if you didn’t exist I wouldn’t have to travel through time to kill you = paradox). Would hitler suddenly return to life? NO, (again science fiction explains) the new timeline “C” has nothing to do with the previous timeline “A” (where hitler existed) because it affected only timeline “B” (where hitler doesn’t exist).
        Applying this to the show: Walter in timeline “B” (amber universe: where peter already exists because of olivia, independently of the observers) travelled in time to eliminate the observers, creating timeline “C”: no observers. But this only affected timeline “B”, not timeline ‘A’ (blue universe), which remains the same (september still interrupted walternate).
        Summing up: the new reset only changed from the FIRST action of the observers in the AMBER universe beyond! which only happenned in 2015 (the invasion). That is why the reset only goes that far.
        I can’t explain it better. and yes it is the most accepted timetravel theory. hope I helped.

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        • Omniscient_Jay says

          Greetings, ian!

          I’ve always been rather wary of filtering Fringe through existing time-travel theories, those found either in other works of fiction (e.g. Back to the Future) or in modern physics and science. To my mind, it is always better to approach Fringe – and any work of fiction incorporating time-travel, really – on its own terms. Which is to say, construct a framework based purely on what the material shows and gives us, leaving us to assemble things and see what picture emerges.

          Not to say that time-travel systems existing independent of the show have no value – studying and understanding different conceptions of time(-travel) can certainly be a useful tool – but fiction has the liberty to establish its own rules, and so long as they are internally consistent and are adhered to, then various frameworks can be created in stories.

          But that’s besides the point.

          You appear to be describing a branching timeline model. We have the S1-S3 Loop timeline (A), the S4-S5 timeline (B) extending off of “A” at the 1985 point (the point of Peter Live/Die divergence), and the Post-Reset timeline (C) stemming off of “B” at the 2015 point. What we saw at the end of 5.13 would then be timeline “C”, one wherein the Invaders don’t invade, and one devoid of Observer presence post-2015 in any manner.

          Such is my understanding of your ideas as presented. However, just to make sure I have grasped your explanation correctly, I will share the questions that immediately come to mind (I am working through his linearly, so apologies for any all-over-the-place-ness):

          -Walter/Michael jumped from 2036 to 2167. If any temporal incursion causes a new timeline to diverge at the point of arrival (whether past or future relative to the departure point), how come timeline C didn’t branch off in 2167, and instead branched off at 2015?

          After all, in this scenario, we have two outcomes – one where Walter/Michael aren’t present (resulting in the original Observer outcome) and one where they are present (resulting in the Michaelite outcome).

          How does Walter/Michael jumping to 2167 retroactively affect 2015?

          -On the same topic, wouldn’t the Invaders be creating a divergent timeline at the 2015 with Invasion? They would be jumping from their timeline of Origin (Timeline 0) to the 2015 point of Timeline B (S4 history). This would give rise to two outcomes, one that gave rise to S5′s history (2015-2036 Era of Occupation), and another in which there is never an Invasion.

          In fact, this non-Invasion outcome would be very similar to the Post-Reset outcome – P/O/E would be around, September and Walter would have worked on The Plan, and the Tulip/Tape would be present. However, Walter and Michael would still exist in the present, since this is only a non-Invasion outcome, and not the product of The Plan.

          At this juncture, it might be best to introduce new nomenclature for ease of differentiation:

          –Timeline 0 – Observer origins timeline
          –Timeline A – S1-S3 Loop
          –Timeline B – S4 history
          –Timeline C – Non-Invasion Outcome (2015-XXX)
          –Timeline D – Post-Invasion Outcome (2015-2036)
          –Timeline E – Post-Reset Timeline (2015-XXXX)

          If we are to assert that any time-travel incident create a new branching timeline, then naturally, “before” the Invaders arrived, there would be an Invasion-less future (C), and a new branch (D) would have formed upon their arrival.

          So how are outcomes C, D, and E related to one another? How does E fit alongside C and D?

          -A slightly different question concerns how the “Reset” actually works within a branching timeline model. Because in reality, nothing is actually “reset”; it is simply that a new timeline is created (E).

          So when Walter/Michael jump from Timeline D’s 2036 point over to Timeline 0′s 2167 point (via the wormhole connecting the two points in these parallel timelines), what exactly happens? How is Timeline E actually created, the one where Walter and Michael are absent for the 2015-2167 period, vanishing at the moment of original Invasion?

          To summarize all of this, I have three questions for your consideration:

          -How a “reset” can actually happen in a branching model;
          -Why Walter/Michael jumping to Timeline 0 creates Timeline E (Post-Reset), and not Timeline F (Post-2167 Michaelite timeline unconnected to Timeline B’ S4 history);
          -The relationship of Timeline E to Timelines C (Non-Invasion) and D (Era of Occupation), and how everything fits together at Timeline B’s 2015 point.

          You say that you can’t explain things any better, but I would nonetheless request that you try to address these three points, if possible. It certainly wouldn’t do if I have misinterpreted your ideas, so clarification would be greatly appreciated. :)

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          • Rick Terry says

            Hey O.J.!
            (Very Long Post Ahead)
            The questions you pose are exactly why I have a problem with the 2015 only reset. I see it more as a meta-loop with branching timelines and negated timelines throughout.

            So lets say that there was a natural order of things originally. I’ll call it Timeline zero. (bare with me I’m gonna get into a bit of fan fic to explain things)

            Timeline Zero: Big bang happens, dinosaurs, proto humans, etc… Universe splits to create Blue/Red set, fast forward to 1978…Peter is born to Elizabeth, and Walter bishop in both universes, fast forward to 1985…Blue Peter succumbs to his disease, Blue Walter is devastated. He begins to watch Red Peter through the window that he created to view the Alternate universe that he and Belly discovered in the 70′s. He watches Red Walter find a cure for Red Peter, and sees him get cured. He continues to use the window to view the redverse so that he can copy their technology, and he also watches Peter grow up. Meanwhile he has been training this girl Olivia to use a powerful drug called cortexiphan. He and Bell created this drug to tap into the potential powers of the mind that are disrupted as one ages. Olivia has shown a natural ability to cross into the redverse with cortexiphan in her system. At one of these crossings she meets a young red Peter in a field of White tulips. These meetings continue for years as she continues to train her abilities. Fast forward to 2008…Olivia and Nina and Walter have created a science team called Fringe division. They are also working with Bell who has traveled to the redverse via “The Machine” that has the power to bridge the two universes. The two universes are working together to share technology. It is during this time that Blue Olivia falls in love with Red Peter. Fast forward to 2015…Peter and Olivia are living over here and they have a daughter Etta. They love to go to the park and let her blow the dandelions.(Remember this scenario for the ending) Peter has developed a relationship with Blue Walter, and regards him like a father. Walter and Nina had long ago adopted Olivia when her mother died, this was not long after his own wife had passed away. So Blue Walter was a father figure to Blue Olivia, and is now Peter’s father in law in 2015. Anyway Fast forward to 2167. Scientists in Oslo Norway find a way to engineer humans that are void of certain emotions, by doing this they seem to increase the intellect of these new humans. This study continues through-out the years until it is perfected. The Scientists have totally negated human emotion, thus increasing intellect to measures we cannot understand. This is the genesis of what we know to be the Observers. Fast forward to 2609…These post humans have long ago surpassed humans, and consequently they have come up with their own way to procreate that doesn’t involve sexual reproduction, so all females have been evolved out of being. These post humans have also polluted their environment to a point that they cannot even breathe anymore even with their need for much less oxygen than their predecessors needed. So they decide that they need to go back in time to to view what went wrong. They then create the implants that allow them to travel outside of time. They realize that by going into the past it will rewrite history since they didn’t exist in the past until after 2167. So they devise a plan to scout out the past knowing it will create a new timeline. They send back 12 temporal scientists to Observe history and report back all their findings. These scientists do not know the true purpose of this mission, they execute the mission as Observers only. So the 12 Observers travel all the way back to the beginning of all things creating a branch-off from that moment onward. They set up a beacon so that they can find this point in space-time from their own timeline of origin (timeline zero) this is what will be now known as timeline 1-a. (pre-season 1-3)

            Timeline 1-a: The 12 Observers observe all of history. Certain Observers are assigned to certain periods of time. September is assigned to the 1970′s-2030′s and he begins watching Blue Walter just as Walter realizes the existence of the Alt universe. He continues to watch Walter as he views the universe through the window. He realizes that Walter is distraught over the ailment of his son, this stirs something in September making him want to find out what is going on with his own progeny. September travels back to Timeline Zero 2609 and finds out that his own Progeny has a condition, that will result in his termination. So mimicking Walter he decides to preserve his Progeny as best he can. He then takes anomaly xb-6783746 into the past before he can be terminated. He places him in a safe place underground. He returns to his Observation of Walter. September then realizes that the other Walter is having the same problem in the alternate universe. After seeing Blue Peter die, he is compelled to go to the redverse to watch Walternate create the cure that will save his Peter. It is while doing this that he unwittingly interrupts Walternate. This cause Walternate to miss the reaction he needed to see to save his son. Unbeknownst to September in that moment, Walter was watching via the window. This then led Walter to create the portal and cross over to the redverse to cure Peter. September observed this act, and saw Walter and Peter fall into the icy lake. This is when he saved them. He then realized that human fathers will go through great lengths to save their progeny, even crossing universes to save the alternate versions of them. This is when September realized that his own progeny was important to him. He didn’t yet know why he was important, but just knew he must be if Peter was this important to Walter. This is when he tells Walter that the boy is important. He was really talking about his own progeny, but he was also telling Walter that Peter was important to him as well. Fast forward to 2008. All the events in timeline zero have been changed from 1985 onward. Now Olivia is an FBI agent. Peter has grown up as a roguish conman Walter went insane, They all come together to solve mysterious happenings they are called Fringe division. Peter and Olivia fall in love over the next few years. Meanwhile Bell creates “The Machine” to get to the redverse. He recreates this same machine while IN the redverse, so now there is one in each universe. Fast forward to 2011 Peter gets into the blue machine to stop the red machine from destroying the blueverse. He chooses blue due to his love of Olivia, and Walter, and thus destroyed the redverse. This leads to the corrupted 2026 we saw in The Day we Died. This eventually leads to degradation of the blueverse and the need to send back the machine into the central park wormhole, before the Machine is sent back Walter reprograms it to only work for Peter. He develops a bio-mechanical interface only coded to Peters DNA. Then they send the machine back This loops time back onto itself pre universe split to the paleo period. this leads to timeline 1-b (season 1-3 )…

            Timeline 1-b. (iteration 2 in the loop this overwrites timeline 1-a):
            The Observers have witnessed the impact of their presence in the past. They determine to allow the next iteration to play out basically the same, but they also want to fix the broken future, and end the loop before it has to repeat again. So they leave easter-eggs from the First People for Bell to find, and for Olivia and Peter to find the machine parts. This prevents the need for the machine to be created by Bell in the loop. This is essentially a bootstrap paradox now involving the machine. So then the Observers step out of time and set up a new timeline (Timeline 2 AKA Amber [season 4-5]). Meanwhile in the loop, 2011-b Peter gets into the machine and is bombarded with the 2011-a Peter’s consciousness. He is able to experience all of what happened after his previous decision to destroy the redverse. This consciousness trip cause 2011-b Peter to not choose destruction. He instead chooses balance, which the machine interprets to create a bridge to not only the redverse, but also timeline 2 (AKA Amber [season 4-5])…

            Timeline 2 (AKA Amber season 4-5 timeline):
            While outside of time September and the other Observers revisited certain points in the past to tweak them. September went back to get the white tulip first. He also grabbed Michael from the loop. He placed him somewhere safe (pocket universe maybe?). He then visited the moment of the icy lake, instead of saving Peter, he allowed him to drown, Observing Walter he accidentally unknowingly dropped his blue rod. He then went to 2011 of this new timeline and met up with the other Observers. They congratulated him on his erasure of Peter from the timeline (end of season 3)…

            Now that The universes and timelines have been bridged, via timeline 1-b Peter, and now that timeline 2 has been established by the Observers, timeline 1-a and timeline 1-b has been totally erased along with Peter.

            Begin season 4…

            Walter lives in the lab, Olivia is his custodian. Astrid is Walter’s hands and eyes in the field. Lincoln Lee joins the Fringe division. Weird stuff happens, and this dude Peter shows up out of nowhere. He is found floating in Reiden Lake naked. This guy claims he knows all of the Fringe team, and certainly has a lot of insider info that no one should know about except them. He tells them he is Peter Bishop, who happens to have died as a child in this timeline. He tells them he is from the ALT universe, to which they say that Red Peter died too as a child. Peter realizes he is in a different timeline. Eventually Olivia starts having memories of a negated timeline (timeline 1-b) thanks to Cortexiphan dosing, and Peter’s presence. Fast forward to September’s mind…September Tells Peter who he is and where he is from, he tells Peter that time got all screwed up after they began Observing the past. He told Peter that he is supposed to be with Blue Olivia, and that they are supposed to have a child. (Timeline zero), and that because he was with the wrong Olivia he created a circumstance that was detrimental to the future. (Henry’s DNA turned on the machine that could have caused the destruction of the universes again). He told him he erased him from time so as to erase Henry from time. and that He is to go home. Peter thinks he still has to get back to timeline 1-b, but doesn’t realize it has been overwritten with timeline 2. September is locked out of timeline 2 by the other Observers due to him refusing to fully erase Peter. However he foresaw this, and put the address into Peter’s eye. This of course led to Peter finding the beacon, and letting September back into the timeline. This is when September tells Peter that he is home. That this is the timeline now, and that Olivia is his Olivia. So Olivia succumbs to her new-old memories and becomes who she used to be. They save the universes from Evil William Bell, and live happily until 2015. But not before Walter is met by September in 2012 and told that an invasion is coming.

            Meanwhile back in timeline zero 2609:
            The Observers have sent back all their data, and High Commander Bob decides that 2015 in timeline 2 will give them a 99.9999% probability to successfully transition their existence. He calls for Captain Windmark, and gives the order to invade the era. September is captured, after it is revealed that he has continuously meddled in the timeline. His tech is then removed, and he is then stranded in the 2012 era. He soon begins helping Walter to implement the plan.

            While playing in the park at the age of 3 years 1 month and 5 days old, Etta is separated from Peter and Olivia during the invasion. Peter goes off to find Etta, While Olivia and the rest of Fringe division try to stop the invaders. Walter gets Bell to help them, and Peter comes back to warn Walter that Bell is trouble, and then bang Walter ambers them. Olivia also Amber herself because Bell has told the invaders of her whereabouts.

            Fast forward to 2036. Etta is 24 years old, and is a Fringe Agent. She is also secretly a resistance agent. She finds Walter and Peter and Astrid in Amber. She gets them out.

            With Her father and grandfather now out of Amber, Etta goes in search of her Mother. They find Olivia, and release her from Amber too. Walter is captured by Windmark, and stripped of his memory of the plan he and September made.

            Fast forward a few weeks.
            after Etta is killed, Peter implants himself with a cortical implant, and learns much about the Observers. Olivia convinces Peter to remove the tech before it take over his emotions. They continue their search for items for the plan. Finally they locate Michael whom was hidden in the pocket universe by Walter and the mysterious Donald. They find out Donald is September humanized. They enact the plan. They find out that they will need to use the shipping corridors to finalize the plan, since their battery is inoperable. The Shipping corridor leads to Timeline Zero 2609, but they have 2 beacons and mathematical formulas that will be used in stabilizing the wormhole to timeline 2 2036 on one side, and timeline zero 2167 on the other side. September dies, Walter takes Michael’s hand, and they go to Timeline Zero 2167. While there, they seek out the Oslo scientists, and show them Michael’s ability, also Walter tells of how their intentions will result in a race of beings that will eventually destroy humanity as they know it, and will then destroy the environment. This causes Oslo Scientists to rethink their plans, thus changing 2167 onward, negating the Observers origin point, and erasing all of the other timelines that the Observers created.

            But we have a paradox here. Walter hails from timeline 2 (amber), he has been downloaded his Timeline 1-b (season 1-3) Memories. He has all that knowledge in his mind, but all those timelines have been negated now. Also Michael hails from timeline Zero post 2167, so his origin has also been negated. Yet they still exist in timeline Zero post 2167 origin point now. So the universe has to course correct a scenario wherein this is possible. It takes Timeline Zero’s 2015 park play days and melds it with timeline 2′s park play days. Since this is the last similar point between both timelines. This is where the reset comes into play. 2015 from Timeline Zero is slightly changed. After the trip to the park, this time Peter receives the White tulip in the mail, that timeline 2 Walter sent out. This is possible because timeline 2 has been superimposed on top of timeline zero so as to allow timeline 2 Walter and Negated timeline zero Michael to exist in the rewritten part of Timeline Zero post 2167. This superimposition only involves the Tulip, Tape, and the memories from the negated timelines. The day in the park is a melding point of both timelines. So when the tulip shows up, Timeline Zero Blue Walter ceases to exist. Now only timeline 2 Walter exists in the future of this timeline.

            So it is sort of a metaloop, in that the secondary timeline (Timeline 1-a) was created from timeline Zero (primary), then the tertiary timeline (timeline 1-b) was a loop of the secondary timeline, then the quaternary timeline (timeline 2 [Amber]) was created from the secondary timeline but everything returned to timeline zero (primary) in the end, with certain segments reset on it. And 2167 onward totally reset. (this is when the Michaelites would come into play)

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            • Omniscient_Jay says

              As Windmark often liked to say, “Hello.”

              A confluence/melding of timelines would likely resolve things. Just to be clear, it is that Timeline 2 and Timeline 0 were spliced together, yes? By the end of 5.13, we would have S4 history (2) leading up to a non-Invasion 2015-2167 period (0 and/or 2), then to the post-Michael 2167 outcome (rewritten 0).

              In this way, all Science Team instances have already been “encoded” into the fabric of the S4 1985-2015 segment, as is everything concerning The Plan (Michael, Tulip, Tape, September, etc.). However, after the real-time execution of The Plan, not further Observer instances are possible, given that they have been undone.

              If we are to accept the principle of timeline convergence in the name of course-correction (due to “Nature” reflexively shifting to maintain spatio-temporal stability), then it seems your scenario works out. I will clarify one element with the S1-S3 Loop segment, which I don’t think you noted in your post.

              The Destruction (2026) and Creation (2011) outcomes of the Loop exist in superposition – the moment the Loop (1-b) is formed, Peter technically chooses both outcomes at the same time in 2011. This is due to the Infinitely Once principle. In the Destruction cycle, the characters repeat their actions over and over in an unchanging cycle, leading to the same outcome (Destruction) every time.

              However, if they repeat their actions every time, then they necessarily carry out their plan to change things every time. So with everything happening at once, Peter also creates the linear Bridge outcome “every time” at the 2011 point. And because the Bridge outcome is causally dependent on the 2026 cycle, the Loop must exist alongside the Bridge outcome.

              Of course, when the rewrite takes effect (1-b –> 2), both of these outcomes are negated, leading to the linear, stabilized S4 history.

              I will also inquire as to the mechanism for rewrite. You say that the Science Team altered key points in history, including the Reiden Rescue incident of 1985. If it is within their power to edit their own past actions (which would have occurred if they edited September’s rescue), then is there any reason why they didn’t undo September’s interference at the Lab during their “Editing Window”? Is it because this isn’t Timeline Zero, so they can afford to do whatever they want with impunity and simply create further timeline branches until they yield a stable, desirable product?

              In any case, this Convergence Hypothesis appears to be another viable candidate for placing context to the endgame Reset. It seems to be a “melding” (lolololololol) of Branching Models, Meta-Loops, and Causal Preservation (i.e. Paradoxal Intervention).

              Many thanks for the thorough explanation. I suppose at this point, you might be asking “Well, OJ Most High? Will you be subscribing to this theory or not?” To which I would reply that as far as Post-Finale constructs are concerned, I’m only interested in examining possible scenarios, and not necessarily finding a definitive answer (an impossible task anyway, as I noted in my earlier post). This way, at least, we’ll be left with something to discuss for a little while longer. ;)

              *Cue Glyph*

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              • Rick Terry says

                In answer to your first question yes timeline 2 (amber) and Timeline 0 (original) were spliced at the same point in history of both. That bright summer day in 2015 when either the invasion did or didn’t happen. But since the invasion didn’t happen after the splice, instead of Peter going home and being blissfully unaware, he went home and got the tulip, then presumably went to watch the tape, then probably sat down with Olivia and talked about their struggles to get (technically back) to this point. He knew Walter would be gone, and that he was Okay and would live out his life in the future. He probably went to visit Nina and gave her a big ole hug, and invited Broyles to have dinner with them. they probably then hired Astrid to be Etta’s live in nanny.

                To answer your point about Destruction vs Creation:

                Yes, I do realize that the loop consists of superposition, but I just wanted to account for The origins of “The Machine” since it was always thought to be of Bells design. But since we started the show smack dab in the middle of a timeloop, we only saw the machine via the bootstrap paradox the loop created (it being dug up from the past, then used, and sent back in the future). I wanted to come up with a scenario that amounted to the first iteration (when the loop was formed) in which the machine had genesis. I also feel as if this loop only iterated twice. In other words, I guess two cycles is another way to put it. There was a timeline (timeline 1-a), then it got looped back, and on the second iteration (timeline 1-b) it got resolved. This was also my take on how Peter’s consciousness got entangled to his first iteration’s consciousness. The Machine held his consciousness over to the next iteration, this allowed him to build on the previous iteration’s actions allowing him to see the need to bridge universes. But I feel each of these cycles had slight deviations, as I put forth in my fan fic parts. Of course we know everything that happened in timeline 1-b since we were allowed to witness much of it in the show.

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                • Omniscient_Jay says

                  I’ve encountered the idea of a Loop precursor timeline before. A reasonable approach, though naturally, the specifics of what happens in there will differ from person to person due to creative liberties.

                  The consciousness pulling event doesn’t require two iterations; it only needs one. In the 1-b scenario, if Walter decided to pull Peter’s consciousness within that iteration, then it always happens. This doesn’t have to happen in 1-a, then carried over in 1-b.

                  By the way, are you aware of the contents of the Peter and The Machine story from the comics? With these being apparently canon, they add a new layer to how the Creation Outcome came about.

                  As for Bell being the apparent architect of the Machine, I have my doubts. The only thing tying Bell to the Machine(s) is Nina, and she said that A) it is “Bell’s” tech, and B) MD didn’t build it. There’s room there to say that A means that Bell designed and built it himself, but there’s also room to say that Nina knew that Bell was associated with the Machine, but that he didn’t built it. Given that Bell has often not told Nina the whole story (see Bell’s First People affiliation and the true nature of Weiss, for instance), Bell can certainly be a candidate for Machine origin in a Loop precursor timeline, but so could Walter/Walternate/Peter/Emmanuel Grayson.

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                    • Omniscient_Jay says

                      One of the life lessons I’ve learned from Fringe is that headaches usually signify that either something is going horribly wrong with your body, or that you are about to die in a most gruesome fashion.

                      Whatever the case, it was nice to know you, _lost_stef_. ;)

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                    • ML says

                      Can you guys write a shorter post so that some of us dummies can understand. lol
                      Because after all these theories I still have no idea how Olivia, Peter and Etta ended up in that park.

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                    • Rick Terry says

                      @ ML:

                      The short version goes something like this: (there is no short version really)

                      There was an Original timeline that the Observers were created in. (Timeline Zero) This is what Dontember was speaking of when he said things like; In 2167 Scientists in Oslo Norway found a way to substitute emotional capacity for intellect. The beings you refer to as Observers stem from this timeline. Also there were no Observer interaction in this timeline before their genesis in 2167.

                      I posit that in this timeline zero that Red Peter and Blue Olivia found each other in a different way than we are privy to (hence my imagined fanfic scenario above). This resulted in Etta. (this goes along with what September always said that Peter must meet this particular Olivia, and have a child with her it happened in the first timeline that was untouched by Observer hands) In this timeline zero there was a scene exactly like the final scene in the park, where Etta blows dandelions and goes home to get a bath. But in timeline Zero’s history there is no white tulip.

                      Now lets go back to timeline zero 2609ish.

                      Observers devise a way to time-travel into the far past to the beginning of all things (Big Bang). They send 12 science team members back with a beacon to Observe time. This action creates a New timeline (timeline 1-a) since we know that the Observers never intervened in the past of timeline Zero (we now have two separate timelines running in parallel connected only by a beacon). In fact the Observer could not possible intervene in timeline zero’s past due to the idea of the grandfather paradox.

                      I believe that in timeline 1-a everything pre-1985 happened as we know it to have happened in the show. Everything post 1985 happened similarly, but with a few key deviations. I believe this is the first iteration of what will end up being a looped timeline. I feel like in this iteration William Bell created the Machine for the purposes of crossing universes. I feel like he had to create one in the blue to get over to the red, and then create one in the red to come back to the blue. Thus two machines, one on either side. I believe this led coupled with Peter’s kidnapping led to a war between the universes. in this version William Bell turned on the red machine to end the Blue universe, but Peter got in the blue machine and overrides Bell’s actions and destroys the redverse. This then led to the 2026 corrupted Future we saw in The Day we Died, which led to Walter sending the machine parts to the past via the wormhole in central park. I believe that Walter first reprogrammed the machine to only work with Peter’s DNA via a bio-mechanical interface. So they sent the machine back via the wormhole, it ended up in the time period BEFORE the universe made the RED/Blue Split, thus it deposited a machine in both universes after the split happened. This sending back of the machine created a timeloop. It basically reset time back to the paleo period creating timeline 1-b (being a loop each iteration replaces the last iteration rewriting it).

                      Timeline 1-b is where we pick the show up in season 1. We are smack dab in the middle of a timeloop as we find out in season 3. In this timeline everything from the paleo period up until 1985 was basically exactly as it had been in the first iteration. The only difference is that the machine was now buried in this timeline’s past. The Observers are now on a mission to un-corrupt the future of the timeline, and end the loop. So they nudge things to have all the Sam Weisses preserver the history of the machine and the first people. September is determined to make sure Red Peter survives as he has thus far, so he goes to watch Walternate find the cure, and again causes him to miss it as he had in the first iteration. So we all know what happened after that…Walter croses over gets Peter keeps him etc. War between universes…etc…This time when Peter gets into the machine he gets bombarded with his consciousness from the last iteration’s Peter. He sees what happened on the last iteration, and why he needs to choose balance vs destruction. This second iteration Peter does choose balance and the machine interprets it as bridging the universes across timelines.

                      So while all this timeline was happening the Observers were pulling strings outside of time. They were placing easter-eggs for William Bell and Olivia and Walter to find along the way to dig up the machine parts. September was also on a mission to un-do his mistake. September travels back into the past of timeline 1-b to nab the white tulip, and to nab Michael from the timeline. He stashes those two somewhere. (I am thinking the pocket-verse). He then revisits the Reiden Lake incident of 1985, and makes a change. He allows Peter to drown rather that saving him this time. this creates a new timeline branch. (Timeline 2 AKA Amber). This timeline proceeds until 2011 when it is bridged by 2011 Peter from timeline 1-b while in the machine. September returns to 2011 of timeline 2 (Amber) and joins his fellow Observers at the statue of liberty to receive his congratulations for returning the future to the timeline, and for erasing Peter from existence. (End of season 3)

                      Timeline 2 (AKA Amber):

                      We know the story of season 4 etc…Peter returns in corporeal form via Olivia and Walter love for him coded into their being. He finally has a pow-wow with September in the baldie’s mind and learns that he is supposed to be with Blue Olivia or else…Peter struggles with this realization until he un-locks the timeline from an ousted September. September tells him that timeline 2 is now his home like it or not, and that timeline 2′s Olivia is his Oliva. So Peter digresses, and tell Olivia that he loves her, and she regain all her timeline 1-b memories. The defeat Evil William Bell, and Olivia tell Peter she is gonna be his baby-momma. Walter gets visited by a distraught September who tell him of a coming invasion. End season 4.

                      Timeline 2 (AKA Amber) circa 2015:

                      Peter and Olivia are at the park with Etta just as they were WAY BACK in TIMELINE ZERO. Except this time the invasion happens, and Etta is separated from them, Peter goes off to find her, Olivia fights the good fight. William Bell tries to get the Fringe team caught by the Observers, they all get Ambered.

                      Timeline 2 (AKA Amber) circa 2036:

                      A 24 year old Etta has found her grandfather, and is led to find her father and their friend Astrid. After Deambering those guys, they head off to find Olivia, Walter is captured by Windmark, and has his brains scrambled. Peter and Etta find Olivia and get her out of Amber. Etc…..

                      Timeline 2 circa 2036 plan implementation:
                      With all the items gathered for the plan, and Donald now having built the time-machine, they find out they are out of battery power. They realize they can use the shipping corridors that connect timeline 2 to timeline zero to time-travel to the origin point of the Observers to negate them. They do so…

                      Timeline zero circa 2167:
                      Walter and Michael show up, they find the Oslo Scientist who is thinking about genetically engineering post humans, and they show him that Emotions are good, and that you can have both emotive capacity, and crazy intellect. He’s all like COOL!!!!! So The Observers as we knew them never get created. This action erases all of the time-travel they ever did from Timeline Zero, and replaces them with future post humans that will not pollute their air, and time-travel back to steal our era from us. This resets time within Timeline Zero. But it also causes a causality paradox regarding Walter and Micheal.

                      PARADOX:
                      Walter is from a timeline that was specifically created via time-travel and timeline-tinkering by Observers from 2609 who travel into the past. Michael is a product of the DNA of one of these Observers from 2609. So by negating the Observers’ genesis in 2167, these two dudes are living paradoxes. The universe has to account for them existing, and make room for them and their actions. It does this by finding the two points on each timeline (timeline 2, and timeline Zero) that are identical and not related to Observer action. This would be the 2015 pre/non-invasion park scene from the end of the series and the beginning of season 5. It then takes these to separate points and overlays the timelines exactly at this point. This causes timeline Zero Walter to disappear from the timeline and get replace in 2167 by timeline 2 (Amber) Walter. This also causes Michael who doesn’t even exist in timeline zero now, to begin to exist in 2167. This also causes the White tulip sent in the mail to Peter in timeline 2 (amber) to come to this Peter (timeline Zero). That means that the Tape that never existed in timeline Zero now exists and wits at Harvard for Peter to come watch. Peter in timeline Zero had never gotten the white tulip originally, but since time was reset to that point, he now does get it, so technically timeline zero has now been changed from 2015 onward, as well as from 2167 onward. Peter seeing the tulip is immediately bombarded with his past extra-timeline experiences. Olivia is up stairs bathing Etta and having super deja vu flood of extra timeline experiences too. Walter is gone, Nina is sitting there thinking Damn I’m alive now. Astrid is missing Walter, but knows where he went, and is eating ice cream in the lab waiting for Peter to show up. Broyles is thinking Whew I am glad that is over.

                      sorry i know this was long too, but I hope it wa easier to understand.

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                  • ML says

                    Thanks Rick, Jay and everyone. I am appreciating everything you guys are writing. It just takes me a few reads to comprehend things but I’m enjoying the analysis. I may not add much to what you guys are writing but I’m reading everything(more than once because I have to to understand it;p) and I really do love the insight you guys bring to the show.

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                    • _lost_stef_ says

                      haha he asked for a shorter response Rick & this one seems longer. You & Jay need to write a Fringe for Dummies

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                    • Omniscient_Jay says

                      It’s a matter of brevity VS nuance; I could certainly make bullet-point presentations of all of this, but I’d be sacrificing subtleties and nuances. Given the complexity of such a topic as time-travel, it takes a lot of words to sort it all out, given our limited temporal perspective.

                      Also, _lost_stef_ (I will refer to you as LS from now one), your posts have no Reply function for whatever reason, so I’ll also respond to you here.

                      I imagine the upcoming September’s Notebook is going to be the Fringe for Dummies; I don’t expect it to contain timeline charts and whatnot, however. Perhaps Rick and I might be better off drafting a 10 Things You Need To Know About Time-Travel in Fringe or something instead. XP

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                    • _lost_stef_ says

                      Jay I am looking forward to the release of September’s Notebook. I have it on Pre-order so I am now just waiting for it to arrive.

                      A 10 things you need to know about time travel in Fringe would be really awesome. I know I would enjoy it as would a lot of other people on here.

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          • ian says

            OK, O Jay…I’ll try to explain some of your doubts, although I myself have them too.
            Firts of, your first paragragh is perfect! Yes, we have to interpretate a theory inside the show and what it shows us. not elaborate on them. You are more than half way there: you understand that the show has unique terms and rules for time travelling. That is the catch!
            Your first question: “-Walter/Michael jumped from 2036 to 2167. If any temporal incursion causes a new timeline to diverge at the point of arrival (whether past or future relative to the departure point), how come timeline C didn’t branch off in 2167, and instead branched off at 2015?”
            Response: there is no instead! Walter and Michael created a new universe from 2167 beyond, where the original observers didn’t exist. That is the hole point! when they travelled to the future they altered the timeline creating a new one AND ALSO RESETING 2015 TIMELINE. Both things happenned.
            your second question: How does Walter/Michael jumping to 2167 retroactively affect 2015?
            I thought I already explained this: because 2015 was the first moment the observers intervened in the amber universe (B). The new timeline (C) only affetcs the previous timeline (B). NO observers, no invasion. I guess you believe in the new observers theory. that is total speculation, IMHO.
            your next question: “-On the same topic, wouldn’t the Invaders be creating a divergent timeline at the 2015 with Invasion? They would be jumping from their timeline of Origin (Timeline 0) to the 2015 point of Timeline B (S4 history). This would give rise to two outcomes, one that gave rise to S5′s history (2015-2036 Era of Occupation), and another in which there is never an Invasion”. Response: you are correct! there is a timeline where they never invaded, but that is not shown to us in the show and is irrelevant. the same thing can be said about: there is another timeline where Olivia never meets Peter (which also was never shown to us).

            next: your abc of time travel. Has no purpose, because there is no your timeline C – not invasion scenario. we are only shown your D and E. Besides that, your C timeline wouldn’t affect the B timeline. what is your point?
            And yes,

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            • Omniscient_Jay says

              Did you finish writing your post? Seems as though you left a sentence hanging. We you erased, by any chance? ;P

              So, as for your responses:

              Saith ian:
              “Response: there is no instead! Walter and Michael created a new universe from 2167 beyond, where the original observers didn’t exist. That is the hole point! when they travelled to the future they altered the timeline creating a new one AND ALSO RESETING 2015 TIMELINE. Both things happenned.”

              Both things happened (clearly), but the question I had is what connects these two events, in your view. We have the following progression:

              -Walter/Michael jump to original timeline 2167
              -Two outcomes now exist, one without Walter/Michael (Observers), and one with (Michaelites)
              -???????????
              -A new timeline branch is formed in 2015, one wherein the Observers never invaded

              What is “?????????”, in this progression? What connects jumping to 2167, and a new outcome being created in 2015 that is devoid of Invasion?

              The issue stems if we are using a strict branching model; in such a scenario, the Observers themselves are technically never rewritten or reset, because when Walter/Michael make the jump, they don’t rewrite the Observer chain, but create a second divergent chain in which beings like the Observers don’t form.

              It seems to me that a 100% branching model doesn’t quite work; you’d need to fit in rewrites somewhere, so as to physically rewrite (and therefore undo) Observer history, thereby removing all Observer instances in the past (i.e. Invasion). But then the question is, when does time-travel cause a new branch (e.g. Invasion), and when does it rewrite the timeline (e.g. jump to 2167)? What decides which of these effects occur?

              Saith ian:
              “I thought I already explained this: because 2015 was the first moment the observers intervened in the amber universe (B). The new timeline (C) only affetcs the previous timeline (B). NO observers, no invasion. I guess you believe in the new observers theory. that is total speculation, IMHO.”

              It is very possible that you explained this before, and that I didn’t catch. As long as you’re game, I intend to get to follow this discourse through; apologies beforehand if I find myself forgetting details like this. For future reference, I will be sure to re-read the prior relevant posts you made before making a response.

              A minor note: the earliest moment of Observer action in Timeline B, which begins at the Reiden Lake point, would in fact be the Reiden Lake point – that is, if we supposed March was correct that September was there that night to “not save” Walter and Peter, dropping the Blue Rod and consequently setting 4.11 into motion. And there have been significant Observer appearances between the Reiden Point and the Invasion Point, notably during the S4 period (~2011-2012).

              But that’s probably beside the point.

              Just to reword, you are saying that because Walter/Michael jumped to 2167 within Timeline C – the 2015-20136 Era of Occupation – it only affected that branch of the timeline (C). That certainly makes sense, given that The Plan is meant to undo the Invaders.

              But then we have the Science Team as the variable. You say “NO Observer, no invasion” [sic]. However, it would be more accurate to say “No Invaders, no Invasion”. We mustn’t forget that the Science Team and Future-Dwellers are also Observers, even if they did not carry out the Invasion themselves.

              Much like the Invaders, the twelve Science Team members were born within that original 2167 timeline, and that’s where they jumped from when they were first deployed; their causality is just as much tied to that Timeline Zero 2167-2609 as any other non-Science Team Observer.

              Is your position, then, that the reason the Science Team instances pre-2015 were untouched, despite Walter/Michael undoing their causal anchor, is because Walter/Michael only affected Timeline C, so their past instances in Timeline B were safe? Timeline C was caused by the Invaders, so it makes sense that, given their erasure, Timeline C would change (or a new outcome would form). But how come the Science Team instances were immune? Why only affect Timeline C, and not B?

              Either I am forgetful or am denser than a Machine-covering lead casing, but I don’t recall you (yet) having directly explained why the Reset discriminated against Invader actions, and not Science Team actions, despite both being Observer groups, and both being tied to the 2167 Origin Point.

              As a last point, I don’t subscribe to the Michaelite Preservation Hypothesis. In my original post (the one you first responded to), I note how I have yet to actual subscribe to any post-finale framework, for reasons elaborated in that post.

              Saith ian:
              “Response: you are correct! there is a timeline where they never invaded, but that is not shown to us in the show and is irrelevant. the same thing can be said about: there is another timeline where Olivia never meets Peter (which also was never shown to us).”

              I agree that it wasn’t relevant to the story, but if we’re talking branching timelines, I simply wished to confirm the mechanics of the ideas you were proposing.

              And to be clear, I’m not talking about Roads Not Taken (possible timelines or outcomes were Character X did Y instead of Z, etc.). Before the Invaders invaded, there would have been an Invasion-free S4 history, and the moment of Invasion would have caused a branching outcome. In a branching model, that non-Invasion outcome still exists, but we simply never see it (much like how Timeline Zero still exists out there, even though we never see it, while we do see the branch that became S1-S3 history).

              Saith ian:
              “next: your abc of time travel. Has no purpose, because there is no your timeline C – not invasion scenario. we are only shown your D and E. Besides that, your C timeline wouldn’t affect the B timeline. what is your point?”

              In the paragraph directly above this quoted passage, I elaborate the inference of a non-Invasion outcome. I agree that it would have no impact on the story of S5 (Invasion), but if we are working out the histories of Fringe in a branching model, it needs to be acknowledged, at the very least.

              My point, then, would be that I am attempting to work out the specifics of your particular branching framework; as a result, I must ask a series of questions that may not seem wholly relevant, but in truth are vital for me to grasp the rules of Ian-ital time-travel, the structure of the Ian-ish timeline network, the progression of the Ian-ified conception of The Plan, and so on.

              I await your responses to this post with feverish anticipation (and will read them with girlish delight). I hope you’ll find the patience to put up with me for a little while longer as all remaining uncertainties are put to rest. :)

              Like: Thumb up 3

              • ian says

                first off: yes, my internet was cut off while I was posting, so my answer is incomplete. and yes I ‘ll post patiently, no problem, because you make good points and questions.
                I would have finished saying: (continuing my original post…):

                you said: If we are to assert that any time-travel incident create a new branching timeline, then naturally, “before” the Invaders arrived, there would be an Invasion-less future (C), and a new branch (D) would have formed upon their arrival.

                again, you are correct but it is irrelevant to the show.

                “-A slightly different question concerns how the “Reset” actually works within a branching timeline model. Because in reality, nothing is actually “reset”; it is simply that a new timeline is created (E)”:
                rResponse: now you almost got me, rsrsrs! yes reseted timelines are supposed to create a new timeline. BUT the show (in season 4) explained to us that reseted timelines can occur in the same timeline. without branches. It was explained in the episode where walter said how they could rewrite a same timeline. (I will give you the exact episode when I remember it…???). So, there is still a reset!
                Your summarized doughts:
                -How a “reset” can actually happen in a branching model;
                -Why Walter/Michael jumping to Timeline 0 creates Timeline E (Post-Reset), and not Timeline F (Post-2167 Michaelite timeline unconnected to Timeline B’ S4 history);
                -The relationship of Timeline E to Timelines C (Non-Invasion) and D (Era of Occupation), and how everything fits together at Timeline B’s 2015 point”.
                Response: they didn’t jump from your timeline O to E. there is no original observer timeline. you have to correct yourself with the timelines with the ones that matter to the show;
                there are no michaelites (too much especulation). you got that idea from this forum, right?
                I can only say that the new reseted timeline only affectted 2015 and beyond beacause that was the first moment the observers intereffered with the amber universe.
                MORE STUFF COMING IN ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS. (as long as you rewrite your ABCD universes and forget about the michaelites idea!!!

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                • Omniscient_Jay says

                  So, we have rewrites that are in fact branching outcomes, and rewrites which are the physical restructuring of a timeline.

                  In your view, what determines which of these effects becomes manifested in a given scenario? How come the S1-S3/S4 rewrite was a restructure, and the 5.13 Reset was a branching outcome?

                  As for Observer origin timelines, it is self-evident that it still exists (or existed). The Plan’s goal was to tamper with the original evolutionary history of the Observers, which spans 2167-2609; naturally, the only way this could be achieved is if “Timeline Zero” still existed somewhere “out there”.

                  Otherwise, we would not be altering original Observer evolution, as there would be nothing to tamper with in the first place, so The Plan would not work. The Plan seeks to alter the “Origin Point” of the Observer species, which happens to be February 20th, 2167 – the moment that marked the first moment in centuries-long transition from modern humans to the posthuman beings that were later known as the Observers.

                  In a branching timeline model, a separate Timeline Zero containing that untouched 2167-2609 Observer Evolution segment is necessary. If you are of the stance that this segment existed within S4 history, either as a “layer” or as an appended segment to future S4 history, then perhaps you could explain how it would fit into this.

                  I will also raise a supplemental question. If the original Observer timeline does not exist, or did not exist for Walter/Michael to travel to, then where did Windmark travel to in 5.11-5.12 (i.e. 2609 Manhattan)? In these episodes, we saw what appeared to be an Observer future, but if this is not the 2609 of the original Observer timeline, then in which timeline does this future exist?

                  Onto the next point, where you say this:

                  “I can only say that the new reseted timeline only affectted 2015 and beyond beacause that was the first moment the observers intereffered with the amber universe.”

                  This is factually incorrect, depending on what you are really saying. If by “observers”, you mean “Invaders”, then indeed, 2015 marks the earliest point the Invaders have influenced the timeline. But if you mean “observers” as meaning all Observers, then you would be forgetting to include the Science Team, who made some significant appearances pre-2015 within S4 history. I would request that you specify which faction of Observers you are referencing in the passage I quote above.

                  As for your final note – that I should abandon the ABCD labelling system and the Michaelite idea – I will clarify a few points concerning this.

                  We are presently discussing branching timeline models, a system of time-travel in which temporal incursions cause new outcomes to branch off. To help keep track of these different outcomes, I have arbitrarily assigned labels to each timeline (0,A,B,C, etc.). That’s all the ABCD stuff is about – they are mere labels.

                  By asking me to abandon this labelling system, it seems you are also advising that I cease discussing branching timeline models altogether. So far, I had assumed that you were subscribing to such a model, and all of my questions have had the goal of exploring the depths and breadth of this system.

                  Are you saying that you have abandonned this theory? Do you still stand by branching timelines (every historical change causes a new timeline)? Or have you adopted a hybrid theory (some changes cause new branches, but not always), or some other framework? Have you always stood by the latter, and it is simply that I have misinterpreted your posts? Clarification on this point would be most appreciated.

                  Also, the Michaelites concept is something the show confirmed – not explicitly, of course, but implicitly via the outlined consequences of The Plan’s execution. Originally, mankind discovered it could increase intelligence by sacrificing emotion. By bringing Michael to 2167, mankind would be shown how to augment intelligence, yet not having to sacrifice emotion.

                  This would cause two things. First, original Observer evolutionary history would be undone, leading to the erasure of Observerkind. And secondly, mankind would pursue a different course for posthumanism based on the study of Michael, and these Michael-derived posthumans, unlike the Observers, would be the perfect synthesis of rational and emotive capacity (due to them being “descendants” of Michael, I have given such beings the name of “Michaelites”, though it is unknown what these beings might have come to call themselves).

                  To be clear, I don’t subscribe to the Michaelite Preservation Hypothesis, in which Michaelites travel to the 1985-2015 period and maintain S4 continuity in lieu of the now non-existent Science Team (as the theory proclaims). However, I do acknowledge the existence of Michael-derived posthumans, not because this is a theory, but because the show clearly stated that their existence would be a consequence of The Plan (as it was explained in 5.11).

                  We might never see these Michaelites (or whatever name you want to give them), but if The Plan was successfully achieved in the way September described it, then in the rewritten (or branching) future post-2167, these “Michaelites” would come to evolve, now that mankind has been shown a “better” path for evolution through Walter and Michael.

                  Unless you adhere to the Michaelite Preservation Hypothesis, the Michaelites in and of themselves are not relevant to one’s understanding of the Reset. However, their existence must still be acnkowledged, as they would be one of the consequences of The Plan, which, as we have seen, was successfully implemented.

                  As ever, I await your response with a breathe-down-your-neck-as-you-type creepiness. 8D

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                  • ian says

                    Omniscient, but you don’t help with questions like “This is factually incorrect, depending on what you are really saying. If by “observers”, you mean “Invaders”, then indeed, 2015 marks the earliest point the Invaders have influenced the timeline. But if you mean “observers” as meaning all Observers, then you would be forgetting to include the Science Team”.
                    Of course I meant the invaders, because that is the first time the observers intervened in the amber timeline. There is no other observers in the amber timeline besides the invaders!!! What I meant was: the new reset affected ONLY the amber universe, WHERE THE OBSERVERS ONLY EXISTED AFTER THE INVASION. So, it is to say the same thing!

                    “In your view, what determines which of these effects becomes manifested in a given scenario? How come the S1-S3/S4 rewrite was a restructure, and the 5.13 Reset was a branching outcome?”
                    I think both rewrites were a restructure. the show doesn’t make a difference between them. You have proof of this when, in the end, Etta reappeares and there is no walter. EVERYTIME there is a new reset, it creates a new universe AND A NEW RESTRUCTURE, but not exactly a new branch. But, yes, I agree, there is no explanation why the s1-s3 reset was different from the s4 reset. My guess is: the s1-s3 was a timeloop!

                    “I will also raise a supplemental question. If the original Observer timeline does not exist, or did not exist for Walter/Michael to travel to, then where did Windmark travel to in 5.11-5.12 (i.e. 2609 Manhattan)? In these episodes, we saw what appeared to be an Observer future, but if this is not the 2609 of the original Observer timeline, then in which timeline does this future exist?”
                    Yes, you are correct, there is a UNIVERSE where the obsevers came to existance. I correct myself!

                    “In a branching timeline model, a separate Timeline Zero containing that untouched 2167-2609 Observer Evolution segment is necessary. If you are of the stance that this segment existed within S4 history, either as a “layer” or as an appended segment to future S4 history, then perhaps you could explain how it would fit into this”.
                    NO, I correct myself. the original observer timeline still existed.

                    “By asking me to abandon this labelling system, it seems you are also advising that I cease discussing branching timeline models altogether. So far, I had assumed that you were subscribing to such a model, and all of my questions have had the goal of exploring the depths and breadth of this system.”

                    I didn’t ask you to abandon your ABCD model, but was saying it is incorrect, since there is no C timeline. was just asking you to adapt it to what is relevant to the show.

                    Besides, I just used the ‘branching system’ to make a point. OK, I’ll try to explain this. yes, USUALLY, in science fiction, a reset would create a branched timeline and a new universe (happenned in s1-s3). IN THE SHOW, it created a rewrite of the same timeline (in season 4), also creating a new universe. The show takes the idea of the ‘branching theory” and makes a slightly different one. Get it now? Basically: there is no branching in the forth season, but there is still the consequence of it: a new universe where what ever happenned before doesn’t matter. Why the difference? I actually don’t know, but it doesn’t matter, because the consequence on both situations is the same: new universe.

                    ‘To be clear, I don’t subscribe to the Michaelite Preservation Hypothesis, in which Michaelites travel to the 1985-2015 period and maintain S4 continuity in lieu of the now non-existent Science Team (as the theory proclaims)’.
                    Good! my bad. i misinterpretated you as agreeing with the michaelites preservation theory (nice name), so ignore my comment about that.

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                    • Omniscient_Jay says

                      Yo, yo, yo.

                      “Of course I meant the invaders, because that is the first time the observers intervened in the amber timeline. There is no other observers in the amber timeline besides the invaders!!! What I meant was: the new reset affected ONLY the amber universe, WHERE THE OBSERVERS ONLY EXISTED AFTER THE INVASION. So, it is to say the same thing!”

                      This is very insightful, as it shows that we have been using different definitions of “Amber Universe” this entire time, thus explaining why we haven’t been making progress.

                      You define Amber Universe as being the 2015-2036 period in which the Invaders arrived.

                      I, on the other hand, have considered the Amber Universe to encompass 1985-2015, because I consider the Amber Universe to be equivalent to S4′s rewritten history – and because S4 history diverges starting in 1985 with the Second Death of Peter, and that all changes relative to S1-S3 begin there, the “Amber Universe” must begin on that point.

                      I personally don’t use the “Amber” label; I prefer “S4 History”, or “Rewritten Timeline”. In my experience, the majority of fans use the term “Amber Timeline” or “Amber Universe” to refer to the rewritten 1985-2015 history that characterized S4; the term “Amber” was derived from the colour of the opening credits to S4′s episodes.

                      Anyway, what you call “Amber Universe” is what I have come to call the “Era of Occupation”, which spans 2015-2036, the historical setting of S5. The reason I was asking these questions, and why your responses were puzzling me, is because when I saw your use of the term “Amber”, I thought you were using the common definition of rewritten history (1985-2015).

                      I suppose, then, that I will reword my questions to better suit your definitions.

                      I completely agree that the Reset would affect the Amber Universe, because the Invaders, being Observers, had their Origin Point of 2167 undone.

                      Now, the Amber Universe spans 2015-2036. What do you call the 1985-2015 segment of history, the one that characterized S4′s timeline? And furthermore, how come that timeline was not affected by the Reset, seeing as the Science Team members were also 2167-origin Observers?

                      I’m not sure you’ve yet given your thoughts on why the appearances of the Science Team members (January through December) in the 1985-2015 segment were not affected by the Reset. This is what I have been asking you for, but because we had different definitions of “Amber Universe”, we weren’t on the same page. I would request that you give your thoughts on this particular point, taking in this definitions issue in mind.

                      “I didn’t ask you to abandon your ABCD model, but was saying it is incorrect, since there is no C timeline. was just asking you to adapt it to what is relevant to the show.”

                      I would maintain that there is a C timeline – a history that was never disturbed by the Invaders in the first place. However, it has absolutely no bearing on the narrative of S5, so I can agree to shelve the concept going forward. To account for this, I will take a moment to shift my definitions, for the sake of clarity in subsequent discussions:

                      –Timeline 0 – Observer origins timeline
                      –Timeline A – S1-S3 Loop
                      –Timeline B – S4 history
                      –Timeline C – Post-Invasion Outcome (2015-2036)
                      –Timeline D – Post-Reset Timeline (2015-XXXX)

                      Refer to this section of this post going forward if you wish to refresh your memory on my definitions.

                      “Besides, I just used the ‘branching system’ to make a point. OK, I’ll try to explain this. yes, USUALLY, in science fiction, a reset would create a branched timeline and a new universe (happenned in s1-s3). IN THE SHOW, it created a rewrite of the same timeline (in season 4), also creating a new universe. The show takes the idea of the ‘branching theory” and makes a slightly different one. Get it now? Basically: there is no branching in the forth season, but there is still the consequence of it: a new universe where what ever happenned before doesn’t matter. Why the difference? I actually don’t know, but it doesn’t matter, because the consequence on both situations is the same: new universe.”

                      Given our previous definitional misunderstandings, I think it might be productive to get on the same page in terms of definitions for Universes, Timelines, Rewrites, and Branching.

                      Universe: The spatial (width, length, depth) aspect of a Reality.
                      Timeline: The temporal (history, events) aspect of a Reality.
                      Reality: A state of existence that is the combination of Space (Universe) and Time (Timeline).
                      Branching: An effect that occurs when a new Timeline diverges from another one at the point of causal divergence.

                      These definitions are helpful when making sense of S4. In the S3-S4 rewrite, the Timeline has changed, but the Universe has not. This means that physical objects in themselves did not change (spatial), but the events that happened to them have changed (temporal). September was correct when he said that “this” was his home; it was the very same Universe, but just not the same Timeline.

                      You speak of “creating new universes”, but I question whether that is true. We have seen two Universes so far, which are the Blue World and the Red World.

                      If you are defining “universe” as “timeline”, then it is simply different terms referring to the same thing. But if your definition of “universe” is similar or identical to the one I proposed above, I would be interested in knowing why an entire spatial universe would be created in the process of timeline branching. Because if that were to apply, we would technically have a bunch of similar universes all coexisting in proximity (Blue World, Red World, Amber World, Invader World, Observer Origins World, Post-Reset World, etc.).

                      If this talk of fine-tuning definitions is not really engaging for you, then apologies beforehand; I am covering this topic because I find being on the same page in terms of terms and what they mean to allow for more productive and expedient discussion. And once we have tuned in to the same definitional frequency, we will be in a better position to talk about rewrites.

                      I await your impending retrovirus of enlightenment with open orifices. 8D

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                  • ian says

                    for some reason I can’t reply to your latest comment (so this is the response to your post made at march 2).

                    Yes, we have had serious issues about names and deffinitions.
                    My firts point is : the show works within universes (blue, red, amber, etc), not exactly timelines. It is showed to us by the collors that constantly appear during the show (blue, red, yellow, green). You can’t ignore this, the collors are clues! green, would be the new universe created after the latest reset (no invaders)! each collor reffers to a different universe. THAT is what I mean when I say amber universe (the yellow one, DOESN’T MATTER IF IT IS NEW TIMELINE, RESET, UNIVERSE, WHATEVER).

                    This is my understanding of the events:

                    Blue universe: timeline where fringe team is created (1985 to 2011);
                    red universe: alternative timeline (from 1985 to 2011)
                    amber universe: rewritten (reseted) timeline of both previous universes (from 2011 to 2036);
                    green universe: new reset (from 2036 beyond).
                    This is how to correctly interpretate the show!

                    So, NO THE AMBER UNIVERSE IS NOT FROM 2015 TO 2036, IT is from 2011 to 2036 (the day the season 4 started). So, yes, Amber universe= 4th season. It didn’t start from the invasion. And yes I agree with most posters that your deffinition of amber universe is incorrect.

                    Your timeline C is the one that creates the problem: The invasion, in my opinion, did not create a new universe (or timeline, or reset): it is shown that nothing was different (characters, previous events, etc). My point is there is no your timeline C (again).

                    now I can try to explain the whole: “I’m not sure you’ve yet given your thoughts on why the appearances of the Science Team members (January through December) in the 1985-2015 segment were not affected by the Reset. This is what I have been asking you for, but because we had different definitions of “Amber Universe”, we weren’t on the same page. I would request that you give your thoughts on this particular point, taking in this definitions issue in mind”.
                    response: if the amber universe (from 2011 to 2036) is a new universe (reset, timeline, rewritten story), why would the new reset (that created green universe AND HAPPENNED ONLY WITHIN THE AMBER UNIVERSE), affect the blue universe (1985-2011)? it can’t retroact!!! what ever happenned before 2011 stays the same.

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                    • Omniscient_Jay says

                      I’ve also noticed that some posts have no Reply function. Is this a common effect on this site, or has it only emerged in recent times? If anyone reading this knows what the deal is with this, I would be interested in knowing.

                      In any case, onward with the show:

                      “My firts point is : the show works within universes (blue, red, amber, etc), not exactly timelines. It is showed to us by the collors that constantly appear during the show (blue, red, yellow, green). You can’t ignore this, the collors are clues! green, would be the new universe created after the latest reset (no invaders)! each collor reffers to a different universe. THAT is what I mean when I say amber universe (the yellow one, DOESN’T MATTER IF IT IS NEW TIMELINE, RESET, UNIVERSE, WHATEVER). ”

                      A few things that come to mind:

                      -The term “timeline” has been used on the show, especially in S4-S5, so it is clear that the realities of Fringe operate within both a “universe” and a “timeline”, which would be the space and history of a given reality, respectively.

                      Regardless of whether Fringe operates in a branching timelines model or not, it is eminently clear that we the term “timeline”, going by its S4-S5 usage in dialogue, is meant to refer to the whole of a given historical sequence (e.g. S1-S3 timeline, S4 timeline, etc.).

                      You say the show works “within universes, but not exactly timelines”. In Fringe – as it is with many works of fiction, incidentally – the term “timeline” is synonymous with “history” (i.e. timeline=line of time =history).

                      I’d think we could agree that we have physical universes (Blue World, Red World), and the timelines that occur therein (S1-S3 history, S4 history, etc.). I would forward the premise of S4 as evidence that demonstrates this principle, as we have the same physical playing field (Worlds/Universes), yet with different sets of events occurring within these fields (Histories/Timelines).

                      In this light, the idea that the “reality” we saw in S4 was taking place in a physically separate universe independent of the Blue or Red Worlds (the playing fields of S1-S3) wouldn’t quite work. We need only look to 4.15 to see why.

                      In 4.15, Peter asks September to help him get back “home”, his history of origin which he believes is still “out there”, and has been working to get back to over 4.07-4.14. However, September says that Peter is already “home”, and that these are indeed “his” people (Olivia, Walter, etc.).

                      It is clear that in S4, Peter finds himself in a different history than the one he is native to, as this is history in which he died in 1985. For September’s statement to be true, Peter must still be in the same physical universe; therefore, while the historical sequence may have shifted, he is still in the same physical “place” that he always was, and the people he knew are still physically the same – it is simply that different things happened to them.

                      But if Peter is not only in another timeline, but another universe entirely (as is your apparent assertion), then September’s claim was in fact false. Peter would then not be home, in either space or time, because these people are physically and historically different than those he knew.

                      If your idea is that we are dealing with several physical universes, with new ones being created at significant changes in history (e.g. September’s mistake, the Loop, S4 rewrite, Post-Plan Reset, etc.), then I would ask that you show how September’s statement in 4.15 can be reconciled with the system you propose.

                      -By colours, do you mean the thematic colours that act as motifs? In early seasons (primarily S1-S2, IIRC), we had the Red-Yellow-Blue trinity, with these colours recurring multiple times. A few other colours have appeared in terms of lighting and background themes, like greens.

                      I find myself a bit puzzled by your observations on such colours, especially on the green. In what way is the post-Reset outcome a “Green World”? I’ve never paid much attention to colour schemes in episodes, so if there are specific episodes that you could point to that have examples of these “colour-coded hints”, I would greatly appreciate it. And I would also appreciate if you could explain why the Post-Reset outcome is tied to Green.

                      “Blue universe: timeline where fringe team is created (1985 to 2011);
                      red universe: alternative timeline (from 1985 to 2011)
                      amber universe: rewritten (reseted) timeline of both previous universes (from 2011 to 2036);
                      green universe: new reset (from 2036 beyond).

                      This is how to correctly interpretate the show!

                      So, NO THE AMBER UNIVERSE IS NOT FROM 2015 TO 2036, IT is from 2011 to 2036 (the day the season 4 started). So, yes, Amber universe= 4th season. It didn’t start from the invasion. And yes I agree with most posters that your deffinition of amber universe is incorrect.”

                      I can’t quite comment on your sequence of events just yet, as I am awaiting your response on why entire physical universes are created for every temporal incursion, and not just a new or rewritten timeline.

                      You say that your progression is the correct way to interpret the events of the show. This is a rather bold claim, so you will naturally require supporting evidence. With this claim being tied to the whole Entire Other Universes concept, your answer to the question I have in the above paragraph will likely reveal whether this concept works.

                      As is usually the case, the evidence speaks for itself. If the evidence you end up forwarding both supports and explains the Entire Other Universes concept, then I would gladly adopt it. Seeing as I still have doubts and questions, I will remain with the definitions I have proposed, until they are proven anywhere from inaccurate to outright false.

                      By the way, when you say:

                      “And yes I agree with most posters that your deffinition of amber universe is incorrect.”

                      What exactly does this mean? What other posters do your refer to? In which way is my definition of “Amber Universe” incorrect, when I am simply using different names to refer to the continuity seen in S4 (which the majority of the fandom refers to as the Amber Universe or Amber Timeline)?

                      “Your timeline C is the one that creates the problem: The invasion, in my opinion, did not create a new universe (or timeline, or reset): it is shown that nothing was different (characters, previous events, etc). My point is there is no your timeline C (again).”

                      Remember that I myself am not proposing any theories (save the definitions I said I had stuck with over the course of the show). When we began this discussion, you said you adhered to a branching timeline model. To make sense of this system, I have given labels to all of these timelines (ABC). It was purely a tool for me to keep track of (what I thought was) your system’s many timelines.

                      If you say there is no Timeline C within your system, then we can stop discussing it; after all, I am only trying to understand your system. Perhaps once I am confident that I have reached an understanding, I can either agree with and adopt your system, show how your system might be flawed (if it is), or propose alternative and superior models.

                      I have yet to reach this point of confident understanding. Until I do, I’ll be continuing my approach of obstinately asking questions until it starts to click (but since you love questions so much, I know this is a most exciting prospect :P).

                      “response: if the amber universe (from 2011 to 2036) is a new universe (reset, timeline, rewritten story), why would the new reset (that created green universe AND HAPPENNED ONLY WITHIN THE AMBER UNIVERSE), affect the blue universe (1985-2011)? it can’t retroact!!! what ever happenned before 2011 stays the same.”

                      S4 history begins on 1985, the date of the Second Death of Peter; this event is what sets S4 apart from S1-S3. Any definition of “Amber Universe” must include this rewritten 1985-2011 segment. You may stop at 2011, or include 2011-2036, but you must start on 1985.

                      Unless we are to acknowledge yet another Universe. We could have the Amber Universe (rewritten 1985-2011), a Neo-Amber Universe (2011-2036), and then a Green Universe (Post-Reset).

                      So, we have multiple, separate Universes that can’t retroactively affect one another. Walter and Michael’s jump to the future only affected the (Neo-)Amber Universe, creating an Invasion-less “Green” Universe, leaving the Amber Universe alone.

                      Alrighty, then. Let’s explore this from different angles. Observe this sequence of events:

                      -In the (Neo)Amberverse, Walter and Michael jump from 2036 to 2167;
                      -The Invaders, on account of being Observers, are erased;
                      -A new Universe – the Green Universe – is created, in which there never is an Invasion starting on 2015.

                      This appears to be what your theory is suggesting. However, if my understanding of your theory is correct, then it would also have the following consequences:

                      -In the (Neo)Amberverse, Walter and Michael jump from 2036 to 2167;
                      -The Science Team members, on account of being Observers, are erased;
                      -A new Universe – the Purple (?) Universe – is created, in which there was never any Science Team involvement of any kind.

                      In other words, it seems to me that your theory is suggesting this:

                      -Alter Observer Origin Point -> Undo Observer existence -> Create new Universe without Observer interference

                      Which would mean the following:

                      -Alter Invader Origin Point -> Undo Invader existence -> Create new Universe without Invader interference

                      -Alter Science Team member Origin Point -> Undo Science Team existence -> Create new Universe without Science Team interference

                      By my understanding of your theory’s implications, this is the state of affairs come the end of 5.13. Is this what you envisioned?

                      Technically, this idea, in the way I have written it, would actually work. By the end of 5.13, we would have the following physical Universes in effect:

                      -Blue Universe (S1-S3 1985-2011)
                      -Red Universe (S1-S3 1985-2011)
                      -Amber Universe (S4 1985-2011)
                      -Neo-Amber Universe (S4-S5 2011-2036)
                      -Green Universe (Invader-less reality)
                      -Purple Universe (Science Team-less reality)

                      The problem of the Science Team action preservation post-Reset is solved by the creation of a new Universe in which they never exist.

                      As a caveat, while this concept works, I have my strong doubts that it is representative of the way space and time actually work in Fringe. Depending on your thoughts/evidence on how and why new Universes are created for rewrites/resets, this caveat may end up being discarded, but it remains for the time being.

                      If my above Universes List is accurate, I will ask you in which Universe(s) 2167 and 2609 are located. If it is not accurate, I will ask that you demonstrate in which way(s).

                      As a last point, I will ask how things are going on your end. Are you deriving any value from this discussion? Are you entertained, frustrated, bored, irate, aroused? I am enjoying myself so far, but I was wondering whether this discussion is becoming a chore for you, especially given the length of our replies (I can say that while I am enjoying myself, it is nonetheless a time-consuming task to draft these posts).

                      And finally, I hope our lengthy and technical discourse is not alienating other readers. At this rate, it might be easy to develop tunnel vision, so if others have thoughts on the differentiation between Universes, Timelines, Rewrites, Resets, Branching, and Chili Peppers, please do offer your perspectives. :)

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                    • Rick Terry says

                      @OJ:

                      The reason the reply functions are gone, is due to the thread being shrunken to it’s smallest allowable space. So when it gets to this point, the best way to reply is to use the @ symbol and the person’s name. Unless Roco changes the format of his comments section, this will likely be the way it is to be. We could start a new thread at the bottom of the post to accommodate more of this conversation, but it would abandon the one in which we are using at the moment.

                      Ok so I will respond to what ian said about the way the show is supposed to be interpreted as far as universes and timelines go.

                      He said:

                      This is my understanding of the events:

                      Blue universe: timeline where fringe team is created (1985 to 2011);
                      red universe: alternative timeline (from 1985 to 2011)
                      amber universe: rewritten (reseted) timeline of both previous universes (from 2011 to 2036);
                      green universe: new reset (from 2036 beyond).
                      This is how to correctly interpretate the show!

                      So, NO THE AMBER UNIVERSE IS NOT FROM 2015 TO 2036, IT is from 2011 to 2036 (the day the season 4 started). So, yes, Amber universe= 4th season. It didn’t start from the invasion. And yes I agree with most posters that your deffinition of amber universe is incorrect.”

                      This is actually an incorrect assumption.

                      The way I see it is as follows:

                      2 three dimensional physical universes, incorporating at least 2 each timelines apiece. (I also believe there is a separate parallel timeline running the whole time, but that is beside the point.) So Blue, Red, Amber Blue, Amber Red, then reset (Parallel timeline)

                      Blue universe = Big bang – 2026 (The Day We Died)

                      Red Universe = (shared history with Blue from big bang until unspecified universal split that we know happened after the paleo period) – 2011 when Red Peter caused its destruction.

                      Blue universe (Amber timeline)= Big bang – 1985 was a shared portion with original blue, after 1985 it has a completely changed history – 2036

                      Red Universe (Amber timeline) = Shared history with original blue from big bang – unspecified universal split that happened after the paleo period, then a shared history as original Red up until 1985, after 1985 it has a completely changed but similar history- 2012, after 2012 we don’t know what the history is but we know the invaders never invaded it.

                      These are the for sure known universes with each timeline.

                      I actually believe there was a third timeline that encompassed the entire story, but was an original timeline. I believe that The Observers come from this original timeline, and that Walter and Michael travel to this original timeline to erase the Observers. I believe the Original (season 1-3) Blue/Red timeline, and the subsequent (season 4-5) Amber Blue, and Amber Red timelines were timelines that were created via the time-travel of the Observers from the original timeline.

                      I believe that the meddling of the Observers created a mess in the timelines, (season 1-3) and that is why Peter had to get into the machine, then once he repaired the future by breaking the loop, and bridging the universes, the Observers went back and took Peter out of the timeline to undo their mess, this created The amber timeline, and erased the (season 1-3) Pre-Amber timeline.

                      So by Walter leaving the Amber timeline to travel to 2167 of the Original (Observer origin) Timeline, he was able to change future history, and negate the Observers and their creation of the timeline that he came from.

                      This is the crux of the paradox…

                      This is where the reset of time comes into effect. The Reset timeline is the Original (Observer origin) timeline reset now to 2015, with the overlapping memories of the negated Observer created (season 1-3, and season 4-5) timelines from the show’s history imported onto the 2015 Peter, Olivia, and Etta, etc… Original (Observer origin) timeline Walter ceases to exist from 2015 onward, and is replace in the future (2167) of this timeline with Amber Walter from 2036, and Michael.

                      Like: Thumb up 1

                    • ian says

                      Still can’t post a response correctly, so this is the response to your post from march 4.

                      First off:I was wondering whether this discussion is becoming a chore for you, especially given the length of our replies (I can say that while I am enjoying myself, it is nonetheless a time-consuming task to draft these posts).
                      yes, it has become a time-consimung task, specially because the site isn’t working correctly.

                      Second off: the show doesn’t make much difference between timeline, universe, reset. if you are going to nitpick about that, I won’t discuss this any longer. I have made my point previously. My branching theory does apply partially and was used to make a point.

                      “S4 history begins on 1985, the date of the Second Death of Peter; this event is what sets S4 apart from S1-S3. Any definition of “Amber Universe” must include this rewritten 1985-2011 segment. You may stop at 2011, or include 2011-2036, but you must start on 1985″.
                      The problem is much deeper that I thought: I think this is your problem, IMHO. NO, season 4 history started with Peter building a bridge between the red and blue universes in 2011 at the end of season 3. It was a reset, which means that what ever happenned before stays the same and doesn’t matter. Since it started in 2011, it doesn’t cover the previous timeline (1985-2011). it only goes forward! This is why I explained the whole branching timeline. It is a new universe, timeline, reset.

                      “In this light, the idea that the “reality” we saw in S4 was taking place in a physically separate universe independent of the Blue or Red Worlds (the playing fields of S1-S3) wouldn’t quite work. We need only look to 4.15 to see why”.

                      Yes it does work. That is why we are arguing so much. You still don’t get it. this is why::::

                      “It is clear that in S4, Peter finds himself in a different history than the one he is native to, as this is history in which he died in 1985. For September’s statement to be true, Peter must still be in the same physical universe.”
                      YOU STATED YOURSELF PETER IS IN A DIFFERENT HISTORY (timeline, universe, whatever).

                      “But if Peter is not only in another timeline, but another universe entirely (as is your apparent assertion), then September’s claim was in fact false. Peter would then not be home, in either space or time, because these people are physically and historically different than those he knew”.

                      AGAIN: the show doesn’t make difference between universes, timelines, resets, history (I’m getting tired of this!!!).
                      And yes the whole point of the show was that Peter was in the right place (home). Yes people are different from what he knew, but that was the point of season 4. YOU misinterpretated as being the blue timeline and because of that, you think the amber timeline includes everything before. That is incorrect, IMHO. All september said was you are HOME. He meant he was in the correct timeline. That is why September said he was important!

                      “I find myself a bit puzzled by your observations on such colours, especially on the green. In what way is the post-Reset outcome a “Green World”? I’ve never paid much attention to colour schemes in episodes, so if there are specific episodes that you could point to that have examples of these “colour-coded hints”, I would greatly appreciate it. And I would also appreciate if you could explain why the Post-Reset outcome is tied to Green”.
                      You are not the only one jay. Apparently nobody grasped the whole ‘colour’ meaning in the series (not even Roco, who continously made observations about the colours). I can’t say specific episodes where the colours show up, but if you have read any review from Roco, you will find refference to it. The green in the new rested timeline, IMHO, would be the park field where Etta dissapears (it is shown over and over again and it is all green).

                      “I can’t quite comment on your sequence of events just yet, as I am awaiting your response on why entire physical universes are created for every temporal incursion, and not just a new or rewritten timeline”.
                      Because that is what the show tells us: for every temporal incursion there is ::: a new universe = new history, new characters, new events, things change. I think you are confusing “universe” with “alternative universe”.
                      And no, the amber universe has been widely accepted in reviews and by fans. There are at least 3 universes. the green one is my own speculation.

                      “If you say there is no Timeline C within your system, then we can stop discussing it; after all”.

                      yes, please, I will stop discussing timeline C.

                      ‘What exactly does this mean? What other posters do your refer to? In which way is my definition of “Amber Universe” incorrect, when I am simply using different names to refer to the continuity seen in S4 (which the majority of the fandom refers to as the Amber Universe or Amber Timeline)?
                      I correct myself: I was misguided by the illusion that most posters understood when amber timeline really started. they are still incorrect, IMHO.

                      “Unless we are to acknowledge yet another Universe. We could have the Amber Universe (rewritten 1985-2011), a Neo-Amber Universe (2011-2036), and then a Green Universe (Post-Reset)”.

                      JESUS LORD!!! I don’t even know how to respond to this… THERE IS NO NEO-AMBER UNIVERSE. there is only one amber universe (from 2011 to 2036). THERE IS NO AMBER UNIVERSE FROM 1985 TO 2011 (that is the blue universe!) To make it clearer, WHAT exactly would be your blue universe? the same timeline???

                      ‘Technically, this idea, in the way I have written it, would actually work. By the end of 5.13, we would have the following physical Universes in effect:

                      -Blue Universe (S1-S3 1985-2011)
                      -Red Universe (S1-S3 1985-2011)
                      -Amber Universe (S4 1985-2011)
                      -Neo-Amber Universe (S4-S5 2011-2036)
                      -Green Universe (Invader-less reality)
                      -Purple Universe (Science Team-less reality)’

                      Your idea is good. despite the neo-amber universe (which is actually plain amber universe)(. I think it is as good of a theory as mine. Just a point: the purple universe is just theoretical (it doesn’t affect the show)! Your amber universe is still incorrect!

                      For further posts, I recommend you summarizing your doughts (no need to quote my every saying). I do it only because it is more methodotical. You don’t have to do that.

                      Like: Thumb up 0

                    • Rick Terry says

                      @ Ian:

                      The site is working fine, as I said Roco has it set to a finite amount of replies to a thread. So if you and OJ and I want to keep this one going then we must keep replying to the last comment that is able to be relied to.

                      We can go to the bottom of the comments and start a new thread if you like.

                      I understand what you are saying about the universes, and timelines, but you are wrong. I will elaborate:

                      You seem to think that each different color scheme in the title sequence represents a new universe. That is incorrect. In season 3 this was true, but in season 4 the amber title sequence actually corresponds with a rewritten timeline not a new universe. Season 5′s title sequence does not represent another universe either, it is just a new title sequence representing the abysmal future of 2036.

                      Truth be told there are only two physical universes throughout the entire show. It was hinted at that these two were once one that split at some point in the timeline after the paleolithic period. This explains how the single machine sent back in time through the central park wormhole was able to double itself causing one to be in each universe. One machine was sent back in time to a point before the universal split occurred. Once the split happened, it was like a cell splitting. Everything in the original replicated itself into the copy. This resulted in the Blue universe and Red universe being in parallel to each other.

                      That is the true story of the universes. Now for the timelines:

                      There was a timeline of origin for the Observers. This timeline remained untouched by time-travel. The Observers created the first timeline off of this one. I will henceforth call this timeline zero.

                      From Timeline zero in the year 2609 the Observers sent back 12 scientists in time to scout out a perfect spot for Observer-kind to relocate themselves. The 12 scientists did not know that this was their mission, and were told to just Observe their findings and report them back. They were also told not to interfere in the timeline.

                      The act of the 12 scientists traveling back to the beginning of all things created a new timeline. I will henceforth call this timeline 1.

                      In timeline 1 the Observers witnessed the big bang, they also witnessed the universal split. This is the Blue/Red timeline from season 1-3. In this timeline September accidentally interfered in the timeline by causing Walternate to miss his cure. this started a domino effect in the timeline resulting in one universe being destroyed, and the other being corrupted to a point of near destruction. This caused Walter in 2026 to send back the machine to the paleolithic period creating a loop in the timeline. The Observers saw this as a problem since it disallows the future from happening past 2026. It is a loop now, that needs to be broken.

                      This is where the rewrite comes into effect. On the second revolution of the loop Peter made a different choice. He chose balance. This balance bridged the universes together in 2011. Meanwhile September went back in time on the loop, and changed the circumstances of 1985 Reiden lake. He let Peter drown, thus rewriting history as we knew it, and creating the amber timeline. I will henceforth call this timeline timeline 2

                      That is how the Amber timeline (not universe) came to be.

                      So Now that the loop has been broken due to Peter, and the Observers actions, we are now in a rewritten timeline. Season 1-3′s timeline did happen, since the rewrite stems from those causality actions, but the rewrite itself covers those happenings up, replacing them with a new history. Peter now does not exist, thus he disappears.

                      Beginning of season 4:

                      With the timeline rewritten, Olivia has never met Peter, Walter remained insane after his release from St Claire’s Olivia is Walter’s Custodian now instead of Peter. Lincoln Lee is now part of the Fringe division after having lost his partner.

                      Over the course of a few weeks in 2011/2012 Peter begins to manifest to Walter as a ghostly image, and in mirrors. He also begins to manifest in Olivia’s dreams. Both think they are going crazy until they tell each other. Meanwhile the Observers tell September that traces of Peter are bleeding through the rewrite, and for September to take care of it. He builds a machine that will apparently be used to full erase Peter from the timeline, but he cannot allow himself to go through with it. Shortly after these instances Peter (who is a product of timeline 1) is able to be integrated into this new rewrite (timeline 2). Olivia is the key to this due to the unknown dosing of cortexiphan that Bad Nina was giving her.

                      With timeline 1 Peter now present in timeline 2 he is on a mission to get back to timeline 1. He goes off to the red universe to see if he can do so. Having no luck he returns, and is met with the idea that he might be stuck here. Later he goes into the mind of September wherein he is told that he was erased from the timeline to fix it. September places the address into Peter’s eye. Peter then goes to 228 Morrow St, and is led to find the beacon. Having found the beacon he unwittingly lets September back into the timeline (2). It is at this point that September tells Peter that timeline 1 is gone, and that it has been overwritten by timeline 2. He alludes to the idea that it is still the same Olivia, and Walter, and physical space, but is just a rewrite of the history he once knew. He is home.

                      After all of this Peter allows himself to love Olivia who has been being downloaded her previous timeline(1) memories. They go on to fight William Bell, and Have Etta in 2012.

                      Still in timeline 2 Walter is met by September sometime after Olivia tells Peter she is pregnant. This is 2012 of timeline 2 in the blue universe. September tells Walter an invasion is coming, they start to formulate the plan…

                      By 2015 when Etta is 3 years-1 month-and 5 days old, Observers send over thousands of their operatives from Timeline zero to timeline 2 so that they can begin the invasion. This is what we saw in episode 5×01 in the park. Olivia and Peter are injured in the initial invasion, and are separated from Etta. Peter then goes to Boston to look for Etta, Olivia goes to New York to fight the Observers. They all get Ambered…

                      2036 timeline 2 universe Blue:
                      Etta is 24 years old, and finds her Grandfather and Father in Amber. She releases them, and they all go to find her Mother whom she also releases. They begin to fight the Observers. Walter is captured and his brain is scrambled to the point that he no longer knows the plan. They search for tapes and find needed supplies. They eventually find Michael. After this they find September and realize he is Donald. Donald tells them the plan. He builds the time-machine. It won’t work because the battery is dead. He goes to December to get him to get another one for them. December is caught and murdered, the battery is confiscated. Astrid has the brilliant idea to utilize the shipping corridors. These corridors connect timeline 2 – 2036 to timeline zero – 2609. With the math formulas, and the beacons Donald sets the corridors to 2167 of timeline zero. He is shot while trying to take Michael into the tunnel. Walter grabs Michaels hand and goes into the tunnel…

                      Timeline Zero 2167:

                      Walter and Michael Emerge from the tunnel and find the Oslo scientists. He convinces them to not create the non emotional Observers. This erases timeline 1, and timeline 2 from existence since those timelines were created y the time-travel of the Observers who now will not happen. But Walter comes from timeline 2, which is a product of action from timeline 1. Michael also come from timeline zero after the origin of the Observers he is made from the DNA of September who now does not and will not ever exist. This is the paradox.

                      It is a Paradox for Walter because his timeline of origin has been negated right along with the Observers. It is a Paradox for Michael because his parentage has been negated since September will never be born to give him life. BUT Walter and Michael STILL exist. This is the paradox!

                      The final scenes with Peter and Olivia in the park is not in timeline 2 (Amber) reset. It is actually in timeline zero reset. Timeline 2 and Timeline zero had the same thing happen in 2015. Timeline 2 had Olivia and Etta and Peter in the park because September told Peter that it was how it was supposed to be, he was right because in the original timeline zero, Peter, Etta, and Olivia were a family and they too went to the park in 2015. These two points were overlapped to accommodate the reset, and the paradox by backwards ripples in time made by timeline 2 Walter along with Michael inhabiting, and changing the future of timeline zero. This is how the white tulip taken from timeline 1 by September, and then sent to Peter from Walter in 2015 in timeline 2 got into the reset timeline zero. The same goes for the tape. The same goes for Peter, and Olivia’s memories.

                      The end.

                      Like: Thumb up 1

  56. JM says

    Am i right in assuming the reset at the end reset nothing except the park scene onwards so season 4 happened as it actually did? If so im pleased because i thought they were gonna reset the entire series.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

  57. number six says

    Stuff I liked in no particular order:

    - Windmark until the moment he left Broyles in that cell.
    - Everything Walter and Peter. It would have been more poignant if Walter had regained his memories last season. The Boy Must Live telegraphed their separation so clearly, I was prepared for it, but the fact is that they have always been the truly epic love story of this show, so the focus on them was appreciated.
    - Broyles. I love that man.
    - Astrid and Broyles didn’t die. Not that it would have mattered, because the reset would have undone that. By the way, welcome back to life, Nina!
    - Astrid got to do something in the very last episode. I’ll love you forever, Astrid!
    - Peter got the white tulip. I know Walter said they wouldn’t see each other again, but he’s wrong. Peter is a Bishop, he’ll find a way to Walter.

    Stuff I didn’t like:

    - It might have been emotionally resonant, but intellectually it left a lot to be desired. It glossed over too many things and everything was too convenient. Like September getting shot, to justify the previous emotional scenes.
    - The kid’s actions and general demeanor. I hope that’s not all the entertainment Walter will have in the future.
    - The way Windmark was killed. I think Michael did it, not Olivia, but it doesn’t matter, it was anti-climactic.
    - The kid giving himself up to the loyalists last week made no sense, it was a clumsy ploy to go back to the alternate universe, where we only saw…
    - My least favorite characters. They didn’t make an effort to age them, except for the hair and even that was badly done. They forced an icky relationship between Altlivia and Lincoln, because… Twitter! Altlivia still looks like Lincoln’s mother, not matter how gray his hair is.
    - Lincoln, you suck.
    - Another reset. Are retcons and resets nervous ticks on Wyman’s part or what?

    It wasn’t a brilliant finale, but did it suck completely? I don’t think so. Those who think this is the best show ever have the right to do so, but I don’t think it is. I don’t think it ever was, although I used to root for it to become one. White Tulip (by Joel Wyman, mind you!), Peter… they are proof of the brilliance this show was capable of. They had something in common: lots of heart, but also a respectable amount of mind. At some point, the next shiny object, the cool idea won the battle against the heart and mind and Fringe suffered for it. The finale tried to recapture that past magic and although I don’t think it quite succeeded, I’m thankful that at least it tried. No matter how it fell and how it failed along the way, at some point it did try and it gave me some of the most enjoyable and endearing moments and I’m thankful for it.

    This is the end of their show, but it’s the beginning of ours, Josh Jackson has been saying something like that since the latest Comic Con. Fringe will live on in fanfic, art, discussion boards, etc… Those characters are ours now. In my mind, I’m ready to have Peter rescue Walter from the future or build a time machine that allows him to visit his father in the future. I have plans for Lincoln too ;)

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      • SissySiri says

        The “kid” gave himself up so that Walter, Olivia and Peter would not be hauled off the train in handcuffs.

        Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      while I agree with some of your complaints (specially that alternative characters didn’t seem to have aged), you didn’t understand the killing Windmark scene!
      Michael had to give himself up to the legalists to ensure Olivia would get cortexiphan doses.
      It was quite clear when she asked him why he did it and he answered with the same gesture as he did after she killed windmark using her powers.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  58. David says

    The ending was far far away from satisfying for me. I wish they just put the two minute park scene after the end of season 4 finale and ended the show there. The amount of plot holes they injected to the story in this season was unacceptable even in FRINGE standards. They just ruined the whole series by season 5 plot and particularly the ridiculous timeline reset at the end.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  59. JM says

    Although I will continue to post on this blog until people stop doing so, and after that will continue on on seriable for the foreseeable future, i’d like to thank the other members of this blog for allowing my first blogging experience to be a great one and even though i slowly strayed into the “negative camp” i never stopped enjoying the thoughts and reading the comments of you all.

    With special thanks to J.P, Dylan (who unfortunately didnt stay till the end), Darth Kate (who while I didn’t agree with her on certain points she had opinions that she voice very VERY VERY strongly), Rick Terry, _lost_stef_ and shidey17 (I would always look for your comments out of the bunch)

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

        • _lost_stef_ says

          thanks JM ;D

          Unlike some of the other users on here i don’t always contribute much with theories and *smart* stuff but i like to come on here and read everyone’s thoughts as they help me process mine and clarify things that i may not have understood so for that i am very thankful to all the regulars on here.

          I hope that we all can continue visiting this blog to share our experiences of rewatching seasons 1-5 in the future.

          I think that without my fellow Fringies this experience would never have been the same and i don’t see why we should’t continue it ;D

          Who knows we all might come to love another show together that we can argue about lol

          Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

          • Anne says

            I agree with that. I barely comment here because I always find what I’m looking for from others. Others find the words to express my thoughts exactly. But I’m reading and enjoying (sorry read and enjoyed :( ) so much the theories, observations (how many times I was like “wow! I didn’t pay attention to this, that’s awesomely awesome!”) and opinions (even when I’m jumping from my seat sometimes). Anyway, this bold has been a great companion along the way so thank you Roco and all the Fringies out there for that.

            Like: Thumb up 3

    • J.P. says

      Thank you, JM! All in all, it’s been a blast here on Fringe Bloggers and yours would always be the comments I’d check for first.

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • says

      Thanks for the shout-out!

      Your’s was always an appreciated opinion for me as well. You did an awesome job at pulling me out of my Fringe lust long enough to see things from a different perspective, which in turn allowed me to be more diligent in my reviews and theories. I was probably on the more positive side of the coin, but I did and do see the faults of the show as well, but I loved how you expressed them in a tasteful way, and not just as some show flamer coming on here for a response.

      :D

      Like: Thumb up 3

  60. David says

    4815162342 You have what I term “Paralysis by Analysis”, so you mean to tell me you sat through 2 episodes and got nothing out of it, incredible.
    Your comments make you like the observers trying to show too much intellect but with little emotion.
    The episodes to me were a perfect ending to what has been one of the most incredible series I have watched.
    granted not all episodes have been perfect, but what in life is, overall though i am totally satisfied with the series and the ending.
    Have to admit teared up a little with the Walter – Peter scene brilliant work by both John and Joshua.
    It is sad that this series has finally come to an end, so might I take this opportunity to sincerely thank the Cast and Crew on what has been for me the most amazing 5 and a half year journey that I have ever experienced when watching TV.
    Well as they say I suppose with regards to 4815162342 comments “You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”
    I also Pray and hope that whatever other work the cast has lined up, that they are just as successful in that endeavour as I think they have been in Fringe.
    GOOD LUCK CAST AND CREW OF FRINGE – YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED
    GOD BLESS YOU ALL

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

  61. Lui says

    Thank you FRINGE, for 5 amazing seasons. Thank you for an amazing ending to an amazing show. I am speechless right now. All I can say is amazing:D

    Like: Thumb up 5

  62. says

    Can an Observer cry?
    Because i did.
    Several times.

    Walter Bishop, i officially hereby call you godfather of Michael, take good care of him…

    Whát a beautiful, wonderful ending of an awesome story that was called ‘Fringe’.
    Every little detail was in those two last episodes, thank you for making me cry; it were tears of happiness.

    I will cherish it in my heart forever, it touched me more than i thought, on multiple levels.

    Joel, Kevin, JJ, entire cast, crew and all those involved on making ‘Fringe’: you did a wonderful, no, an excellent job. Take that with you in your future carreers and projects. This fan is very satisfied.

    Thank you also to all fellow Fringies world-wide for hanging out and doing all sorts of creative things to keep our show in the air.

    When spring arrives this year where i live, i will seed our frontgarden with white tulips. If this site is still up by then, i will post a picture when they are in bloom :)

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 20

  63. Cortexiphan Kid says

    I haven’t watched these two episodes yet or read any comments or reviews, so here are my predictions (in no particular order):
    1. Windmark dies or becomes very human
    2. Etta is alive again
    3. An emotional Peter/Walter scene
    4. Walter dies (or at least ”dies”)
    5. Olivia takes control of her Cortexiphan powers
    6. A rainbow
    7. Windmark tricks President Glanzkopf (the High Commander) in order to get revenge
    8. Peter vs. Windmark fight
    9. A white tulip

    Like: Thumb up 4

  64. Anne says

    [spoiler!] It was perfect! sooooo P-E-R-F-E-C-T! Everything was there, they didn’t forget anything: Peter and Walter (I burst into tears when Peter said “I love you Dad”), Walter and Astrid (“it’s a lovely name, Astrid”), a happy ending for Peter and Olivia, easter eggs (GGGR lights, the 6 fingers hand…), old gory cases, December, Altuniverse (Olivia asking about Walternate, priceless), Cortexiphan, Olivia’s abilities (go to hell Windmark, you didn’t know who you were fighting against!), Gene!!, and, last but certainly not least… THE WHITE TULIP!! It’s a huge tribute to the fans. I’m crying like a baby just right now but it’s a mix of sadness and happiness because I’m so happy with this ending, they couldn’t have done better. JH Wyman, thank you for this mind-blowing and unforgettable finale, thank you to all the cast for their amazing performances over those past 5 years, thank you JJ Abrams for creating this show, thank you Jeff Pinkner, thank you everyone who worked on this show, thank you Fringies for this amazing community, thank you Fringe for being the best show ever!!! Tomorrow, I expect the FWS (Fringe Withdrawal Syndrom) to take over my life. It will last a few days, and then this will change in beautiful memories and nostalgia, and after the grieving process, I’ll be able to start some marathons with my friends. After this perfect ending, I have no regrets. RIP Fringe, you will be missed but you left as a hero, with the head up, and for this (and for everything else) you’ll always be remembered. Fringe Forever, Forever Fringie :’( :-)

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

  65. ML says

    I think, Michael and Olivia killed Windmark together! Her neuro-pathways were changed through the cortexiphan… maybe there was no cortexiphan left in her body, but Michael had a way to reactivate them, so they did it together! After all he has a supermegahighintelligent brain!!!

    Whatever it was, it was DAMN COOL!!!!!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

  66. Overkast says

    They reset time. So season 5 never happened. It’s like finding out it was all a dream. Maybe Gene’s dream.

    Like: Thumb up 1

    • says

      It did happen. It already happened.
      They just escaped the temporal loop from happening again.
      Thát reset the timeline. But it did happen. That was the paradox.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

      • Briar says

        For those who observed it, it happened. For the characters, happily, it didn’t because they broke the loop. Presumably Walter and Michael also remember it, however, and presumably also it sets their agenda in the future.

        Like: Thumb up 7

  67. 134sc says

    First of all, I absolutely loved this finale. The emotional beats, the characterization, the acting, the directing, the writing (for the most part) was all exteremly well done.

    Now to the main issue. Since the observers dont exist, the entire series should therefore be erased. On its face, this makes perfect sense. However, within the Fringe universe there are so many ways that this can be explained not to be true.

    The way I see it, September/Donald erasing the possible future of the Observers, acts to 2015 (for Walter and the boy) as the machine did to Peter at the end of season 3. Both siezed to exist to those people at those moments in time (end of season 3 and 2015), however they do actually exist (Peter outside of time and Walter in the future). These clearly are both a paradox. Seasons 1-3 (with Peter) had to happen, in order for season 4 to happen, but in order for season 4 to happen seasons 1-3 had to be re-written. Walter and the boy going to the future had to happen in order to prevent the observers possible future, but in order for that possible future to be erased, the Observers future had to at somepoint in time be a possibility (therfore seasons 1-5 still happened as shown). Walter and the boy in the future are the remanents of this observer paradox.

    Now technically speaking the Observers still do not exist, so again the series should be erased. However, the paradox created with the Observers that I mentioned above, could only have been made if the Observers still had the possibility to exist, leading up to the invasion in 2015. Once they invaded, they changed the future. They knew this would happen so they had a plan in place to make sure that as they said “their future would have a 99.999% chance of success” what they did not account for was the child observer. He was the anomoly. He was that 0.001% that made the difference.

    So in the end, because of the observer paradox everything leading to the reset did in fact happen. But just like season 4, things were re-written, but remenants of the amber/blue timelines remained. This idea is shown through the White Tulip somehow finding its way to Peter. However this occurred (which I am still a little confused about), it was a left over f