FRINGE: 5.11 The Boy Must Live

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As time dramatically ticks down toward the end of this acclaimed series, Peter, Olivia and Walter stop at nothing to save the universe from Observer rule.

Walter enters the infamous deprivation tank in an attempt to uncover a key piece of information about the mysterious figure, Donald. Meanwhile, Captain Windmark sets out on a revealing mission of his own as long-standing questions are answered in the all-new “The Boy Must Live” episode of FRINGE airing Friday, Jan. 11 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT).

Fringe 5.11 "The Boy Must Live" Ratings

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  1. Scott42444 says

    Before they showed the bridge, anyone else think that Walter was going to see the Twin Towers?

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 15

    • shidey17 says

      I did. Now I can’t remember how Manhattan was spelled when they showed it outside the dome in the future.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • mesa says

      I actually thought the bridge would be in half, reintroducing that british shapeshifter guy. Can’t remember his name!

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • Scott42444 says

        Newton? Whose “team” would he be on? Ours? The Observers?

        I have thought, “Hey, couldn’t they take some Shapeshifters and put the Observer tech into their heads and then we could infiltrate the Observers without worrying about getting caught so easily!”

        Maybe if Walternate is still alive, although I doubt it. He would be almost 100.

        Like: Thumb up 2

  2. shidey17 says

    I’m sure this has been discussed in a previous thread, but have we talked about the GrapeVines…..you know….red + blue= purple.

    Like: Thumb up 2

    • Scott42444 says

      I didn’t think of that. They have been showing the GrapeVines rather prominantly. I thought it was either to:

      A) Hit us over the head with a “Walterism”

      or

      B) Like Sprint, Ford, and Nissan before they paid for advertising of a new Grape flavor of “RedVines”

      Like: Thumb up 4

          • Scott42444 says

            BTW, I am making a rule:

            IF YOU ARE CREATING SOME SORT OF BOMB TO KILL OBSERVERS, DON’T PUT BLINKING LIGHTS OR LOUD BEEPING SOUNDS ETC. THAT WILL ALLOW THEM ENOUGH TIME TO TELEPORT OUT OF THERE!!!!!!!!!!

            God, that drives me nuts. First Etta now Donald. They both tried and failed, with Windmark walking away.

            Like: Thumb up 5

            • _lost_stef_ says

              lol totally agree Windmark could have been dust so many times by now if it wasn’t for those damn flashing lights lol

              Like: Thumb up 2

  3. shidey17 says

    The blue is just overwhelming in this episode. It’s everywhere. It’s got to mean something.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      Well, 8 minutes later they removed ALL doubt. Apparently, no version of Olivia will be caught dead in old makeup. She is too damn beautiful. I think my new favorite Olivia hair style will occur in LESS THAN 1 week’s time.

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      • says

        I just realized my tv viewing next week will be (to coin a term I hate to use) epic!

        What I normally watch after Fringe on Fridays (Haven) will be playing their last two episodes of this season back to back on Thursday, and then Fringe will be play its last two episodes ever back to back on Friday.

        Yep epic is the right word this time.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

          • shidey17 says

            I was waiting for you to comment about the hair! BAMF SEXY BAMF

            She’s like total sex hair Barbie

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            • _lost_stef_ says

              Lmao at Sex Hair Barbie but your totally right!! Seriously is there any hair colour / style that doesn’t suit Anna Torv.

              I cant believe we are going to see Altliv again…. SEXY SEXY Double BAMF time

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      • Scott42444 says

        Enemy of Time

        That is what my life is going to be entitled for the next 185 hours.

        I CANNOT WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Why did they jam so much awesome into the final 3 hours when there seemed to be so much fetch quest filler during a lot of Season 5?!?!? Great episode!

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

  4. Geoff says

    Best episode of the season.

    Only thought is that if Observers didn’t exist, Peter survives, and doesn’t come over to our universe. Olivia didn’t seem to make that connection. Peter got it.

    Excited to see Alt-Liv in the finale.

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        • _lost_stef_ says

          OMG @shidey when i saw the preview i was thinking to myself how much fun me and u can have just talking about how sexy liv looks with her new future altliv hair colour and style…. its gonna have to be its own topic right?

          Roco please post an article just on Future Altlivs sexyness thanks :D xoxo

          Like: Thumb up 1

    • shidey17 says

      If that’s how it happens, I would assume Liv crosses over and meets Peter somehow due to Cortexiphan. Although, I kind of think that maybe the whole consequences of changing the timeline thing might not have occurred to Wyman. I guess we’ll find out.

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      • lizw65 says

        According to an interview I saw, he did indeed think of it, but suggests that things are “more complicated”.

        Like: Thumb up 1

    • Ian S. says

      In that sense you’re right, though I have a theory that if it’s the Fringe team that deletes the Observers, they may remain in their current positions in 2036 as they’re the one’s experiencing time in a non-linear fashion, if that makes sense?

      It’s more logical that everything would be reset, the September would never distract Walternate and he would find the cure, but I’m not sure. I feel like our team would be displaced in time.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Walternate says

        It would be in a similar fashion to Peter’s ‘erase’ back in 85 in the new timeline. September never saved Peter, Peter died, no current day Peter.

        So, if they send the boy to…whatever year they said, it would therefore prevent the Observers from ever coming into existence as they are, and therefore the invasion would never occur. So this current 2036 timeline would become irrelevant, just like the old timeline we saw in the Season 3 finale. It would be…”cleansing” the entire timeline if you get what I mean, and the entire show never happens. Which I guess in it’s own Fringey sort of way, it makes sense. I can ultimately see this as Walter’s atonement, but it would also make every single piece of character and plot development absolutely pointless.

        Like: Thumb up 1

          • ian says

            accidently hit the submit button on my comment….

            Yeah, walternate, the entire freaking show would be NON EXISTENT! Without Peter on the blue verse, no fringe team, no fringe! WTH? Who would have guessed, back in season 1, that the observers were the reason for everything happening? (and i still have to read people complaining that the 5th season is an entirely different show….???)

            The idea of EVERYTHING being reset is both audacious and self- destructive. I personally think it would blow my mind away!!! But, I think most viewers would be upset.

            It all depends on how they are going to work on the timeline corrections, like Ian S said.

            Like: Thumb up 0

  5. williamreturns says

    Leaps and bounds better than 5.10, felt good, loved the Walter and Peter scene. Still miss Olivia though…

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  6. SissySiri says

    I was glad to see Altliv and Lincoln in the finale promo. Was not too happy to see Peter fading . . . . :-(

    Although for 5 years the promos have been very misleading. I hope that is the case in this instance.

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    • DanS says

      It WAS misleading. If you listen to it, you can hear they edited together “I love you— forever”, when in fact, he’ll likely say “I love you”, and then some other sentence which contains “forever”. I actually thought for a long time that there’s no way Peter would survive in the end. After all, before a season 5 was greenlit, the ending was going to be that Peter had never existed. To come full circle, Peter would never have existed, as Walter would not have crossed over. However, I’m now thinking they’re baiting us on that, and that he will survive. Will it be Walter? Will it be Peter? I think it will have to be Walter, so that Etta can live….Maybe Walter will have to drown in Raden Lake, but Peter will make it out…

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • William III says

        At the end of the 3rd season, if the show had not been renewed, Fauxlivia would have succeeded in her attempt to cross over and bring Peter back to stop Walternate. The Peter-vanishes plotline would never have happened.

        Like: Thumb up 4

        • Geoff says

          In my head, I try to ignore the “Peter vanishes” storyline. Yeah, it doesn’t harmonize with the end of season 4 that I like or season 5, but I really think that was a bad idea.

          Although season 5 may make September not wanting to erase Peter make more sense.

          Like: Thumb up 2

  7. Ian S. says

    Oh god so good. So so so good. 10/10, and I rarely give things 10/10. It was just so amazing. I yelled when September aka “Donald” was on the screen and so many things were answered and seeing 2609 and the Observer grow in the tank it was all too amazing.

    Like: Thumb up 6

  8. says

    I am actually speechless. Which is weird because I am never speechless.

    Call Dunham we have a Fringe event!!!

    I had uber spoilers for this episode, and knew exactly what would happen, but somehow I was still surprised by the whole thing.

    I will definitely need to let this one stew for a while then rewatch and collect my thoughts before I can write my review.

    I will say that this was one of if not the best episode I’ve ever seen of Fringe.

    10/10 is my preliminary report.

    P.S.
    September/Donald will be getting my vote for Fringie of the week this week.

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  9. Cody says

    Why doesn’t Donald just stick the device that was in Peters neck into his? Ability’s are back. Time travel back. Problem solved.

    Like: Thumb up 6

      • Victor says

        Well Donald obviously doesn’t want to become an observer again…as he said so himself it wasn’t much of a punishment, so despite it giving them advantage to put the tech back into his head he wasn’t willing to give up all those emotions which he desperately wants to preserve, besides maybe if he did that he may have become more observer like and failed to “observe” those emotions he did during the bluverse?? Haha I’m rambling…

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    • Ian S. says

      I thought that myself but remember how hard it is to capture one of them, and if he ever tried to interfere with them again I’m sure they wouldn’t hesitate to kill him. He’s on strict probation. I’m sure he spent the last 20 years cooped up in his house really doing nothing.

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      • Scott42444 says

        Yes, but don’t you think he would have seen one of those REWARD-WIRE videos that let him know that Peter, Olivia, and Walter were back? It kind of bothers me that the general public seems to be aware of our Fringe team but important characters do not.

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        • says

          When September changed to Donald, it is almost like his spirituality increased … hence The Bible. He chose to live a life of solitude, to the development of himself and to make atonement for his actions.

          If September took the name of Donald from Donald O’connor in Singin’ In The Rain, do you think that it has anything to do with the character’s name being Cosmo Brown ?

          Like: Thumb up 4

    • ian says

      Oops, someone found a plot hole!!! Good one, Cody, I missed that. The same way, Peter could just put the device back in just for a brief time.
      Yes, the problem was having the Peter-observer arc. But, IMHO, I guess when they (walter and september) planned out the plan, they didn’t have access to the device, so, now they are just sticking to the plan.
      I wish they had addressed this…

      Like: Thumb up 0

  10. DeepRunner says

    5.11 was A-MAZING!

    Where to start?

    * September–Taking the tech from the neck made you human. And you had a son that you hid in the past. The meeting between September and Michael screamed a father meeting his son. Playing What Child is This on the toy music box. Heavy implications of a savior. Describing the scientific evolution of the Observers. It was incredibly excellent emotion. Your talk with Walter, removing the shroud from the hidden significance of which boy really was important and had to live. Explaining the white tulip. The stereo console that hid the briefcase that Peter found to bring you back into the universe. Blowing your apartment into oblivion as Windmark and Gecko-head were toe-tapping to jazz. The plan to move into 2167, where there would be no Observers if they could see what was possible with Michael. (OK, when Peter said that, am I the only one here who thought, “Hmmm…no Observers…no Peter. Because if there are no Observers, then September doesn’t show-up at Reiden Lake.” It would have been nice if September had said why he did it in the first place. Maybe we’ll find out next week)

    Ceteris parabis, Cerveris knocked it out of the park.

    * Walter–In the tank, in the raw. Open and free, indeed. Your moment with Peter when you told him you knew about the Blue timeline. Yeah I know we saw it in sneak peeks, but it was still good to see. The moment you met September. The talk with him in the storage shed. The reveal that you would have to sacrifice yourself for the plan to work. The remorse that was expressed of the unintended consequences and your chance at atonement. The realization that it was Michael, not Peter, who was important. The White Tulip.

    John Noble was excellent. My hope is that Walter remains standing at the end.

    * Windmark–Going into the dark polluted future of 2609 (in a very 1984 manner). Very much Vader to the Commander’s Sidious. Consumed with anger and hatred while the Commander told you the fugitives (Rebels?) were inconsequential. Getting your Liberace on, such as you could, striking the piano keys. Tracking down Michael, and greeting him with the ominously cold, Hello.

    Stage is now set for the showdown between Windmark and the Bishop Brigade.

    * Olivia–Longing for the reset so that Etta can come back. Good job with Michael throughout the show. More in the background this eppy, sorta like many of the other eppies this season. Hope springs eternal though, and next installment (the penultimate show) looks like it will be her moment. (OK, I will say this once…. Did Lincoln REALLY have to be part of the deal? REALLY??????????????????)

    * Peter–Your moment with Walter. Your talk with Olivia. Not as much in the background as Olive, but this was the September episode (which I enjoyed very much, btw). It would have been nice to just give a nod to TEOAT, with a brief mention of the mind-meld.

    This eppy was another solid 10. Now, the next seven days will be the last seven-day wait. (Sigh….)

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • says

      “(OK, I will say this once…. Did Lincoln REALLY have to be part of the deal? REALLY??????????????????)”

      DP — I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

      Now with that said, Seth certainly looked quite dashing as an older man. Too bad he wasn’t the Lincoln we had to deal with in 2011-2012. :-)

      Like: Thumb up 6

    • Scott42444 says

      Just an aside, I put the closed captioning on when I watch Fringe (in case I don’t hear something that is said) and it said the music box song was called “Green Sleeves”. It could be wrong, of course, but my wife was wearing a long sleeved green shirt and I was calling her Green Sleeves for about an hour afterwards.

      Like: Thumb up 1

    • February says

      Thinking about your “No observers, no Peter” point, if there was np September, Peter wouldn’t need saving from the Reiden Lake, because Walternate wouldn’t be interrupted and Peter would be cured, with no need for Walter’s input. Peter would, however, live on the red side. We have to assume he would eventually cross, and meet Olivia (as she is ‘the right Olivia’)

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  11. DeepRunner says

    RE: my thoughts about Peter and Reiden Lake, if no Observers, it is true September would not have distracted Walternate. But, if Peter’s shared existence was supposed to be with Olivia, as September told him in TEOAT, then…yes I know Olivia would have probably crossed-over and met him, but…I am eager to see this how this loose end gets tied-up. Right now it seems like a paradox.

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        • DeepRunner says

          Rick, I can see it now…Lincoln muttering to Peter, “Is there ANY Olivia you WEREN’T with?”

          Unfortunately, I don’t think it will happen…

          Like: Thumb up 6

      • DeepRunner says

        But in the mind-meld in TEOAT, September told Peter that the Faux O was the wrong one (could be that the ONLY reason was Henry), that Our Olivia was the one his shared future was with. That is why it seems like a paradox, right now, anyway. But as I said, maybe we will find out next week.

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        • says

          My thoughts in light of last night’s eppy is that He was adamant about Red Peter having to be with Blue Olivia so that Etta could exist and die, so that The team would formulate the plan, so that September’s son would end up being a catalyst for changing humanity for the good. He wanted his little anomaly to have purpose. After this happens, then let destiny take care of itself.

          One thing I don’t know if anyone has thought about yet; What if the Observers still exist after the reset (because the plan works, and a newer gentler breed of genetically engineered humans stem from the study of Michael), but instead of the Lizard people they seem to be, they are more angelic, like Michael the (archangel) original prototype. What if after the reset September still exists, and so does Michael, (and possibly even a female Motherly type too) in their own time.

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          • Surun Tunne says

            i just thought about that too…so maybe the whole reset thing will play out different than most of us are expecting and that peter and olivia will indeed get their daughter back again :)

            Like: Thumb up 1

            • Scott42444 says

              Agreed. Michael will be the prototype and will be able to set up a series of events to lead Peter and Olivia to each other.

              I didn’t think of that. Good call. I hope that Wyman thought of it, too. From what everyone says on the show, the finale is one of the best scripts anyone had ever seen so I have to have faith.

              Like: Thumb up 2

              • ian says

                the problem with this theory is that Michael can’t travel through timelines. Even if a new generation of ‘observers’ existed, they wouldn’t have that specific ability. It is the device that gives them that. They need to address the device invention to clear this out.

                Like: Thumb up 0

  12. DanS says

    I think the last episode is going to be redemption time for Widmark.
    Michael’s examination, combined with what Nina said to him, (and Jazz) will make him realize the error of his ways, and when Walter, Peter and Olivia fail, it will be Widmark that saves the future, bringing Michael to Feb. 20th 2167, and preventing Observers from not having emotion. Any thoughts?

    Like: Thumb up 4

      • Scott42444 says

        Agreed. I want him to suffer. I am a father and I know what I would do to ANYONE who hurts my little girl. I don’t think I could have taken the Observer technology out of my head. I would have rolled the dice that I could make it 48 more hours. That way, I could kill the man who killed my daughter (effectively for the second time) by my own hand and look into his eyes while he dies.

        Plus, not to beat a dead horse, but wouldn’t Peterserver be REALLY handy right now? Also, I know that Donald doesn’t want to be an Observer any longer but wouldn’t the whole “plan” be easier if he just sucked it up and shoved one of those things back in his head? He might not be able to, we don’t know the results of the experiment that was performed on him. But, he is okay with Walter dying instead? He could go to the 2600’s, get some high tech medical equiptment and download all the information neccessary to perform the surgery for “biological reversion”, then bring Michael to 216-whatever, then go back to Walter and have him perform the surgery. Bingo, bango, boingo. But, that wouldn’t be as much fun! Now, would it?!?!?!?

        Like: Thumb up 3

    • Scott42444 says

      I didn’t think that was the WHOLE reason, was it? They have mentioned that they were “preparing” soldiers to defend our world. I know that he intensified his focus on Olivia because of the Peter dilemma and his wife’s insistance, but I didn’t know it was originally stated that was the only, main reason.

      You are probably right, though. I am not trying to argue just expand the discussion.

      Speaking of which, I just wanted to say that I love the fact that I can complain about what I might consider a “plot hole” and not be looked at as a Fringe hater. I can’t tell you how awesome it is for someone to tell me I am wrong and tell me why so I can move off of what I consider a mistake and enjoy the story more. Thanks.

      Like: Thumb up 2

    • ian says

      You are wrong: He didn’t need cortexiphan to cross over.
      Plus, the trials only happenned after Peter was abducted. That is very clear in the episode where Peter meets Olivia for the first time. Walter started the cortexiphan trials exactly because he knew he had openned a can of worms.

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      • Red Balloon says

        They started the cortexiphan trials when Liv was 3 or 4…in 1985, Liv was older, I think she was 13, so Walter and Bell were already looking forward to cross over without damaging the universes, and in the episode “Peter” he learned that Liv could do that naturally.

        Like: Thumb up 5

  13. Victor says

    I wonder if they are going to have a special intro for the last two episodes! Gosh….I’m going to miss this show and having to just smile at people when they see me watching a fringe episode with melting bodies and ask me “What the hell are you watching?” Fringie forever!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

    • Scott42444 says

      I REALLY, REALLY hope so. I am a big fan of the different intros and how they are used to tell a story within the story. If, and this is a big if, Olivia gets that (presumedly) cortexiphan injection prior to the intro sequence we MIGHT get a Red 2036 intro. That would be enough for me. I am disappointed that there hasn’t been one new intro all year, it is all recycled from 4.19. The way everyone is talking about the finale(s), well 5.12 & 5.13, it seems there are MANY nods to Fringe’s past. I also do not know if there will be 2 intros next week or just 1. Also, the glyphs…will they make one long 2 hour phrase or will they be seperated by episode? We shall see in 6 days! Woo-Hoo! I love the fact that this is a planned ending. So much better going out with a bang rather than a fizzle!

      Like: Thumb up 5

  14. number six says

    So many people guessed the reset and Walter’s sacrifice at the beginning of the season! So what was it? Did Joel Wyman read those theories, thought that was a better ending, than the one he had planned and changed it? Or did he telegraph the ending early on to make it as predictable as possible? :(

    Like: Thumb up 3

      • JM says

        This is just my interpretation of what was said in this episode and the preview for the finale but, I thought after episode 4 the ending of the series was gonna be the park scene again, but it looks like im going to be wrong and its going to be a reset of everything. Which is starting to make more sense based on some of the recent cast interviews and if that is the case it is going to absolutely polarise fans because essentially it will mean the show’s storyline never existed, not like season 4 (the storyline existed minus peter elements) this mean all of it never happened. Im unsure how I feel about it, it does seem like a sort of natural conclusion.

        My original thinking for the ending of the show was Peter returning to live over there and resumed his relationship with his parents and Walter accepting this was right and then the rift between the universes was healed so no one could ever get through again. In this version Peter and Olivia are only friends, so she accepts he goes aswell. This restores balance to the universe etc. etc.

        As I said unsure how I feel about it, If this is the ending alot of people are gonna be unhappy I think.

        Like: Thumb up 2

        • JM says

          Im just gong to summarise that into a sentence I predict that the ending of FRINGE will be that the show never existed, which I think may be worse than the ending of LOST

          Like: Thumb up 3

          • 134sc says

            Well I really hate endings that wipe out memories or wipe out everything, so that would really suck. That being said, I am willing to wait and see. Maybe that won’t happen or maybe the path taken to get there, if it does happen, will be so awesome that it won’t matter.

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          • number six says

            To tell you the truth, I don’t like any of those options. Either they’ll reset to the day in the park or to the day Walternate created the cure, this time without September interrupting him. One would make this season a waste of time, the other S4 and S5 (S1-S3 were already gone with the reset in S4), but if there’s going to be a reset, only one would make sense and that’s the reset to the day the cure was created.

            Knowing this show, they’ll go for the option that makes the least sense, but maybe they’ll surprise me this time.

            Like: Thumb up 4

          • SissySiri says

            JM – If they do that I will never watch another show that this group is a part of . . . . .why would I? It would just be a colossal waste of my time, years of time!

            Like: Thumb up 0

        • Ian S. says

          I agree with you that it feels natural for the show, just as it felt unnatural to scientifically erase Peter but then bring him back … with love. In that sense I’m worried Wyman will reset everything then bring back the core three’s memories through “love” so they all find each other again in 1985. That would suck.

          I love the sound of a full reset even if it means the show technically never happened. It just makes so much sense, it would be devastatingly wonderful.

          Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

          • JM says

            Perhaps the ending of the show will be set in the newly reset timeline with Peter and Olivia meeting for the first time over the interuniverse bridge, I can see wyman doing that.

            Like: Thumb up 3

          • Scott42444 says

            Like Lost’s characters creating a place where they could all meet (I don’t want to spoil anything for those who haven’t seen it), even those that didn’t really appear on the show for very long? That Fringe ending would be more plausible since there is already a “love” angle that has been introduced to us in Season 4 (even the one with the old lady in the apartment explores that concept). I think that (and I go into a ridiculous amount of detail on the newest set photo page) making it so that Etta doesn’t exsist would negate her sacrifice. That means that the gang NEVER is truly happy and goes against everything that they have been saying about keeping Etta’s memory alive. There would be almost ZERO chance for Etta to exsist. Maybe Henry, but that isn’t likely (plus, no taxi driver named Henry to help an emergency delivery of a baby who was conceived days prior to name the baby after anyway) because there would be NO FRINGE DIVISION since Walter didn’t rip a whole in the red universe which created a need for the Fringe division “over-there” in the first place. Red Peter and Red Olivia would get together but Blue Peter would die and never meet Blue Olivia (whose life wasn’t exactly emotionally open and full until she meets Walter and Peter). The Walter that Peter CAN’T LOSE (!!!!!) will NEVER exsist. He won’t take out pieces of his brain to prevent his “hubris”. He will be raised by Walternate, a man who Peter HAS SEEN SHOOT HIS BELOVED WIFE IN THE HEAD!!!! Plus, making it so that Etta never is born is something that Peter and Olivia SHOULD NOT be okay with. There has been SO MUCH TIME devoted to her death and their painful feelings over her death IS PROOF THAT SHE WAS ALIVE. That is toooooooooo important of a topic for Peter and Olivia to suddenly go, “Okay, we are fine with that!” Can those two EVER BE HAPPY?!?!?! What the Hell else can they sacrifice to the human race? F#$K YOU DONALD! We don’t want to reset time (they should say)! We are sick of making these decisions! Tell us how to go all Terra Nova and go back in time to live our lives without having to deal with all this crap!

            Like: Thumb up 5

            • Scott42444 says

              I meant Red Peter and Red Olivia COULD get together (although that is not very likely since Red Olivia wouldn’t be in such close contact with Walternate since she never joins the Fringe division that never exists and Walternate is most likely not the Secretary of Defense since he doesn’t write the ZFT because there is no need too because there are no holes in the universe and he doesn’t even know that another universe exists like Blue Walter since he is too busy creating the Star Wars defense program). Whew. I can’t stop going on and on and on about this topic.

              You know, when I saw the preview for episode 5.11 and I heard Olivia say, “So the plan is to reset time” I actually rolled my eyes. But, it appears that there is more heartbreaking decisions that could come out of that one thought than I could ever imagine!

              Like: Thumb up 4

              • Walternate says

                Honestly I don’t know how this will play out since the episodes haven’t aired yet, but from what I’ve seen so far is that it looks like Wyman may have forgotten or really didn’t think through all the things you have said above. I really hope he doesn’t mess this up. If he goes the ‘reset everything to ’85’ route, then I will have a hard time investing myself in anything Wyman touches in the future.

                Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 18

          • ian says

            Yes, I agree Ian S, that would make a reasonable, accurate, scientific ending and I would love it! and yes, I think Wyman will find a way to not do it through love! That is exactly what LOST did! Have some balls please!!!

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  15. Ian S. says

    I would love the time reset if it were not for one thing … Peter’s reappearance in season 4.

    The time reset then made sense. The plot made sense. Everything made sense until Peter came back. Yes, it could be argued it was Olivia’s cortexiphan abilities, but that was only a theory from Walter and even September, who’s much smarter, didn’t know how. His theory was love.

    This stands to reason that if a time reset were to happen again, it wouldn’t feel “reset-ish” enough because deep in my heart I believe their memories could return in a similar fashion. It was just such a bad call on the creators to have Peter return without a scientific method, or at least without explaining what “love” is. Maybe we’ll get that answer, but if we don’t and time is reset, I’ll feel somewhat dissatisfied because it possibly isn’t fully reset. What if an Observer manifested himself from the possible future in another timeline out of thin air!? That makes no sense! Peter’s reappearance makes no sense! I really liked the alternate timeline plot but that was handled really poorly. Wyman still has 2 episodes to clean that little mess up I suppose.

    Like: Thumb up 6

    • Page 48 says

      “So Olivia had less screentime/lines then Windmark. Again.”

      And, only slightly more than Broyles.

      However, she did briefly get to play the part of ‘observer’ as Walter turned the deprivation tank into a depravation tank.

      Like: Thumb up 4

  16. Jas Friedman says

    Time is fluid. So even if Observers did not exist, we will have new Observers. A new timeline. A different universe.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

  17. TFT says

    What if William Bell was never removed from amber? What if HE was the scientist in 2100? It would only mystify Bell further, and it would fit great in the story.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

    • Victor says

      Wasn’t it mentioned at one point that bell betrayed them and gave information to the observers? Or maybe it was one of the characters throwing ideas of what may have happened…

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

  18. David says

    If they’re gonna reset the timeline based on September’s plan, it means that Walter will never took Peter from Red-verse so Peter and Olivia are not gonna end up together andnot only Etta will never be born, Peter and Olivia will loose each other too. Apparently Peter is aware of this result but I thought Olivia was smarter than that.

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • Walternate says

      I think the only thing she is thinking about is getting Etta back. I was kind of hoping those faces her and Peter were making before the kitchen chat was realization of this, but apparently not.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9

  19. Walternate says

    This whole destroy the Observers thing is somewhat troubling to me, and for reasons stated above. Getting rid of the Observers would have made this entire journey pointless. I hope Wyman doesn’t screw this up. From what I’ve seen so far, it really does look like he’s sending Fringe out Mass Effect 3 style. And for anyone who has played Mass Effect 3…you know this is a bad thing.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8

    • Scott42444 says

      I think I could live with the whole reset idea if Michael were somehow used to return the thoughts of everything that Peter, Olivia, Walter and yes even poor stuck-in-the-lab Astrid have done to them at some point. If maybe that is part of what “Donald” is telling him through the weird hand-touching communication thing that they were doing (I think that is why Michael gets off the train, correct? Because Donald secretly told him when they touched all five fingers those two times?) or if he teaches him how to do it later I will be okay.

      I mean, let’s face it. Peter and Olivia have done SO MUCH for the human race. Peter lost a son, his daughter as both a child and as an adult. He lost his mother because of September’s mistake. He lost his father to a universe crossing incident, then he lost his alternate father to an insane asylum, and he is about to lose him again in the finale. Oh, not to mention he got ERASED FROM TIME!!!!! No biggie. Olivia lost her future husband from a “simple” time erasure, her daughter twice as well (both as a child and murdered as an adult), her fiancee, her parter, her neice and sister I am guessing, she was kidnapped and TWICE had incorrect memories implanted in her brain, was almost autopsied (sp?) alive by nutjob Brandon Fayette, had her adopted mother Nina blow her brains out, oh and GOT SHOT IN THE BRAIN TWICE BY TWO DIFFERENT WALTERS!!!!! No biggie.

      Nobody really knows about any of this but the “Big 4″ anyway. So, maybe there is the whole 1985 time reset but Michael somehow gets into contact with Peter, Olivia, and Walter and gives them memories of everything they have gone through together starting in 2008. That way, they can all meet up again (but NOT in a love-shaped purgatory in a church, like in another Abrams program that I won’t mention).

      Like: Thumb up 2

  20. Surun Tunne says

    this episode was just perfect…obviously not sure how this whole reset thing will play out but damnit this was one of the best fringe episodes ever!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 11

  21. February says

    Wish I’d have known you guys were discussing promos, so I could have avoided these comments. Does no one like surprises anymore?

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • Surun Tunne says

      I agree..I didn’t watch the promo after the episode, so I got spoiled the second I got here…oh well.

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • SissySiri says

      IMO I personally do not care about spoilers at this point in the game. I’m just hoping and praying this thing ends well. Bring them on is my feeling!

      Any hints that I will not be as mad as hell next week is fine with me.

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • Surun Tunne says

        ESPECIALLY at this point in the game I don’t want to get spoiled..I mean I wasn’t shocked when I read that we’ll see the altverse again…I just didn’t want to get the confirmation a week before the episode.

        Like: Thumb up 3

    • Scott42444 says

      You know, I have had this discussion with people before. I understand where you are coming from and I HATE to be involved with spoiling anything for anyone. I am on the flipside of the coin. I feel that the short, 30 second preview that follows each episode is fair game to discuss. Especially on a show like Fringe, where the scenes are carefully chosen and often times intentionally misleading. Also, there are oftentimes commercials for big events like the Fringe finale that are just retreads of the 30-second preview that air unexpectedly on television. I don’t know. There is really no answer that is correct. But, I feel that whatever my DVR records under “Fringe” each week is what I want to discuss. I think the bigger annoyance is that a HUGE reveal like Olivia going to the other universe one last time was part of the after credits (well, actually during the credits) preview in the first place. There is only ONE FRINGE FRIDAY LEFT! They aren’t going to get new viewers all of the sudden. Everyone that is already watching the show is going to watch the finale. They shouldn’t have had ANY preview. I would have liked to have been taken completely by surprise (although it was already spoiled for me from some idiot on Twitter and John Noble on the “Cast Finale Videos” section on this very site).

      But, I apologize. I don’t necessarily agree with you but I am still sorry for spoiling anything for you.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • February says

        I agree, there shouldn’t have been a promo. I remember Lost’s finale promo, no new footage. Looking back, Fringe’s promos have always been a little heavy handed with information. It’s like, they promise the big reveals to try and get viewers, but then the episode (if you know what’s coming) falls flat. Like you said, though, no new viewers are coming.
        Back to the point, I do think it’s fair game to discuss the promo, however, I thought that would be in the comments section of the article for the promo, not in the section in which I thought people would be talking about the episode. Am I out of order to expect people, if they want to openly discuss spoilers, to do it in the appropriate section?

        Like: Thumb up 3

        • says

          No, you are not out of Order, but unfortunately once the cat has escaped the bag it’s hard to get it back in. I personally watch the “Next week on…” for all show, so I don’t classify them as spoilers myself, but you are right this one in particular had very spoilerish moments if you somehow were able to avoid spoilers about the Alt uni coming back. I actually have known about the redverse coming back for several weeks, (since I saw a particular cast member in set pics) but I have filed it back in the do not reveal file while here discussing things. Like I said though once the cat’s outta the bag…

          Like: Thumb up 1

    • ian says

      Me too february! Stop commenting on promos!!! They are spoilers, specially to users that live out side of USA.
      IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO SO, BE POLITE AND WARN SPOILER ALERT!

      Like: Thumb up 1

      • says

        I. feel. nothing.
        Nothing at all…
        And yet, i am saddened by a possible ending of my timeline.
        In which what you would call… past.present.future.

        One thing is certain: your demise will come sooner than mine, and since i excist in the future, i cannot end it here. Therein lies the paradox.
        If multiverses excist, and what will come has already happened, then there are always possibillities.

        But i am curious for one thing: what role will William Bell play? Or: mr. X?

        Like: Thumb up 2

  22. Uncertainty says

    As the series unfold I see more and more similarities between Fringe and Asimov’s The End of Eternity. I chuckled when I heard Windmark referring to our times as the “Primitve” like in the book.

    Like: Thumb up 2

    • Walternate says

      Well, considering that his kind is from 573 years in the future…that kinda qualifies us as primitive.

      Like: Thumb up 2

        • Ian S. says

          They have no emotions now so no remorse for what they’ve done to us, they really don’t care about anyone other than themselves. I doubt there are any other living creatures in 2609.

          Like: Thumb up 0

  23. says

    Good Morning Fringies!

    Okay, I have a question. We now know that September/Donald meant his son, Michael ‘must live’ when he said that to Walter in the “Peter” episode. I don’t get it. Why would he say that to Walter at that point in time? I still think at the time when it aired, the writers intended for it to mean Peter, but have changed it to fit this ending. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with it, I just want to understand how it can make sense.

    ****My question may have already been answered in comments above, but I haven’t read through them. So forgive me if this has been answered. I guess I will get through it when I read through all of the comments. A highlight of my Fringe experience. :-)

    I enjoyed the episode very much, if only for all of the answers it provided. Michael Cervasis (sp???) is such a terrific actor. I am so happy that he is in these last episodes — it just feels so right.

    I am holding out hope that Walter won’t really have to die. In the promo, Donald says, ‘fate can change’ or something to that affect. I’m happy to see the Walter/Peter relationship back, although, I’ve never felt it wasn’t. I know he didn’t remember everything from the previous seasons, but for some reason, I never doubted how much Walter loved Peter anyway. Think about it, he loved Peter inspite of not experiencing those three years with him. Nonetheless, I loved the line “you never liked to go #2 in public restrooms . . . ” I can definitely relate. :-)

    Peter and Olivia’s scene in the kitchen was interesting. Did anyone think of Elizabeth’s line to Walter in “Subject 13″ — ‘she (Olivia) can take our Peter home.’ and this week Olivia says, “that boy can bring Etta back (or something like that)”. I just found that very cool that both mother’s thought immediately of their children.

    I have to say that I love both Anna and Josh this season. I know Olivia’s character has been a bit muted so far, although next week looks very exciting for her, but the two actors have really brought life to their characters and to the relationship.

    I have to say, I cannot wait until next week. The final seems like it’s going to do what it needs to to bring closure. With that said, I kind of feel like Anna Torv when she said in an interview — ‘(Fringe) has had a good run . . . it’s time . . . it’s time (for it to conclude its story).’ I am going to miss this show terribly and my Saturday mornings with all of you guys, but I am at peace with its concluding. I appreciate when a show can go out on top and not when it has jumped the shark.

    I enjoyed this episode and have loved this season. I give it a 9/10. Until later!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 19

      • Lincless says

        I fear that’s it. Wyman just expects us to turn off our brains and enjoy his phenomenal twist.
        The thing he forgot was to tell us HOW that works (turning off our brains).

        September referring to Michael is just nonsense.

        Like: Thumb up 0

    • DeepRunner says

      Scully8, I think you expressed greatly what I have been thinking with regard to the switch from Peter to Michael as “the boy (who) must live.” I think Wyman made this season about the Observers and had to do some serious retcon (via reveals in this episode) to make that kind of a narrative change from what people always believed to what it is now. Once they took the Observer road, they moved the story from Walter, Peter, and Olivia to September, who made the initial mistake by Observing a moment he called “important” and “significant”: Walternate discovering the cure.

      I don’t mind it, and I am highly interested to see how it all plays out. But it is a narrative adjustment and, I think, asking people to reevaluate their opinions, understandings, etc. of the previous seasons may be a bit more of a steep incline which will leave some unhappy and dissatisfied.

      Game ain’t over yet, though. Let’s see what happens.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • 134sc says

        Ya, that doesn’t bother me. They can change whatever they like, as long as they make it make sense. There have been other shows I have watched where the writers go back and change what we thought was true, but do not give good explanations as to why it is now the way it is. As a fan that really sucks becasue not only is our interpertation of what went on in the past wrong, there is no good reason for why it is wrong; it just leaves the show an empty shell of what it once was, which for a final season is unexceptable.

        Like: Thumb up 2

      • Scott42444 says

        Well, in Wyman’s defense, he did something similar with the White Tulip. September showed that he can use something with one meaning and slip a secondary purpose into it. He knew that the White Tulip meant something to Walter in the “old” timeline (which might soon be the old-old-timeline) but used it for a secondary purpose in the Amber timeline (2012-2015). So, he said “The Boy Must Live”, maybe right after he sent his “son” to the past. But, he knew that it would have multiple meanings to Walter and he went with it anyways. Maybe. Hell, I don’t know.

        Like: Thumb up 5

    • ML says

      I wish I could agree with you on P/O but don’t you think since 508 the writers have done nothing with them. Olivia convinces Peter to remove the tech yet they never talk about anything. We’ve had what? One short scene in the woods which Peter apologizes that lasted 30 seconds.
      The scene in this ep lasted another 30 seconds and all I could think about is why isn’t Olivia thinking what we are all thinking?! That without the Observers she may not have met Peter. I mean come on. Olivia’s not dense!

      Like: Thumb up 6

      • DeepRunner says

        Could be anything on this front, ML…Short season so not enough time for small talk between characters…heavy focus on the Observers and defeating them….writers less interested in promoting P/O because it has always been there and P/O are together anyway…

        Shippers who enjoy P/O gettin’ their lovin’ on (or even simple interaction) have not had as much of the “love letter to fans” sent to them, but Fringies have had Etta and some other nice family bonding moments this season.

        Like: Thumb up 3

        • says

          ML, as diehard shipper for O/P(why does the guy’s name/initial always go first?:)), I feel your pain. I would like to see a lot more meaningful interaction between Peter and Olivia, but I have to agree with DR in terms of the possible reasons for not having enough of our lovers –time to allocate to the relationship; a lot of time spent with their storyline since S3; and the fact that they are an established couple with a very unique backstory together. Yes, a bit more lovin from Wyman would have been great, but at this point in the game, I’ll take what I can get.

          On a more hopeful note: I think we’re going to get some really nice moments with Olivia and Peter in the final. Who knows . . . they may be the last scene of the series. We’ll just have to wait and see.

          Like: Thumb up 3

        • ML says

          Oh you guys and your excuses ;p

          O/P break up off screen. Really, Wyman?? But okay, I’ll go with it. Yet he never shows us the happy times and what led to them taking off their wedding rings and breaking up. Yes , I know they lost Etta but a little time spent in those years are needed for us to invest in them this year.
          I just feel like we are being ask to fill in so many missing pieces.

          Like: Thumb up 4

    • SissySiri says

      He did say that Peter must live, that the boy (Peter) was important, NOT the boy Observer. Why do I say this you ask. Because does anyone remember the real end of Season 4 when there was not going to be a Season 5? When in the hospital Olivia told Peter she was pregnant and Astrid and Walter were standing there with goofy grins on their faces? Fade to black . . . . Wait! oops, hold the presses!!!!!!! We got an order for a shortened Season 5. Holy Cow guys, quick, come up with something!!! OK how about we paste on a bit at the end of this last episode of Season 4. Yes, yes, I am listening. OK, picture this . . . September comes to Walter in the lab and says they are coming and Walter says who is coming and we concoct this Observer take over? Wow, that sounds great, then we can say that the Observer boy was important, not Peter. Yes, yes, there’s the ticket. Good thinking! Yes, yes, they will go for this. Great, so that is the PLAN, right? Yes, that is the PLAN. :-)

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • ML says

        but I thought the writers have said they had a 6 year plan. Why not go with what they originally had planned. I know they’ve had to fly by the seat of their pants at the end of each season worried about cancellation but I wonder what their original story was.

        Like: Thumb up 5

        • DeepRunner says

          Wyman and Pinkner both talked about having 6-7 years worth of material, but ratings had the show’s renewal prospects on life support.

          Wyman has positioned 4.19 as a back door into a fifth season. I think FOX ate it up because it was sci-fi that was a pretty cool concept (and it WAS). So that became the angle for Season V; once they rang that bell, they couldn’t unring it, to quote Cal Lightman. So yeah, they probably pasted-in that last scene between Walter and September.

          Like: Thumb up 1

          • Scott42444 says

            Well, I think that the “alternate universe” was going to be teased for A LOT longer. I think the plan was to try to grab a lot more viewers before getting so serialized. I know I read different tidbits here and different tidbits there about this. But, someone came in (some episode director or writer or showrunner, I think it was Kurtzman) and said, “I want to run with this alternate universe storyline because it is unique and awesome, etc.” So, they had to abandon certain things so that they could dive fully into the Red vs. Blue Universe plot. Then, they did Season 4, which probably sounded great originally but just DID NOT WORK PERFECTLY. The end of Season 4 was a hodgepodge of cancelled? Not cancelled? Well, let’s do a “soft” ending with an extra scene. I agree that 4.19 was an hour long commercial that WORKED! It got Fox on board. But, they could have put a little more into the writing of the episodes. The problem is that Wyman went to John Noble and Josh and asked, “What would you like your character to do this year?” Well, naturally, Josh said that he wanted Peter to become an Observer. Walter needs to start reverting back to his OLD self, says John Noble. Just like the Walter I acted in 4.19. That will be interesting. Then, when Etta dies, we can have some great father son moments. Oh and make Walter take acid one more time. Okay. I will give you what you want. What’s that Anna? You want to just “be” in every episode but not do much? Perfect. Request granted. Jasika, we don’t care what you want. Astrid’s in the lab. Shut up. Well, I hope they didn’t say that but that is what is seems like. If Jasika had ANY input into where the season was going I hope to GOD this isn’t how she pictured Astrid.

            So, Wyman took a VERY thin outline for Season 5 and shoe horned ALL of these different ideas into it. It turned out to be too much for 9 episodes so they created this META-Game story of “finding tapes”. Also, they wanted to play around with September becoming a bigger part of the show because they were SOOOOOO happy that Michael Cerveris agreed to appear in the audience of American Idol dressed as an Observer during the first couple seasons and John Noble is a friend and so on and so forth. They should have taken the writers and the WRITERS ONLY!!!! They should have locked themselves in a room for 1 week and pounded out an unbelievable plot for 20 episodes and trimmed it down and trimmed it down and trimmed it down. But, they didn’t. They tried to jam SO much stuff that didn’t line up together into Season 5 that it left TOO MUCH FILLER. Now, we get to see what REALLY could have happened all “Final Season” long for the last 2 hours. I bet the finale is awesome. I really do. But, there were many hours that were wasted, in my opinion. I am a BIG FAN who just wanted to take advantage of having 13 more episodes. I don’t feel like they really went after that with everything they had. They were just trying to leave with everyone “happy”. Well, they could have really cemented themselves at the top of sci-fi if they would have taken more chances, like they did in Season 1, 2, and 3.

            Like: Thumb up 4

    • ian says

      Response to all: 1) the relationship between Olivia and Peter has been delt with. There is no time left for more development and it is not the writers fault!
      2) You guys are mixing 2 different moments: September says ‘the boy must live’ to Walter; and September says ‘you are important’ to Peter. When he said it to walter he was reffering to Michael. At that time he had already abducted his own son from the future and hid him in the present timeline. It is actually perfect: the episode “inner child” showed us that this was the writers intentions from the beginning.
      So, yes, it makes perfect sense!

      Like: Thumb up 2

        • ian says

          I wasn’t referring to which episode September said it. But that ‘inner child’ showed the writers’ intentions from the beginning.

          Like: Thumb up 0

  24. Surun Tunne says

    so, just assuming, IF the series really ends with a compete reset(september not interfering walternate, peter grows up in the red verse and so on), that wouldn’t mean all 5 season were pointless.
    the reset is only possible BECAUSE of everything that happened in those 5 seasons…it would be a paradox and very fringe in my opinion.

    that doesn’t mean that I think it will end like this…actually I have no idea how this will play out…but whatever, it’s only one more week anyway until we know for sure.

    Like: Thumb up 3

    • willg says

      I fully agree Surun. Everyone is saying that these past five seasons will be meaningless. That is not true. The reset will only be possible because the past five seasons. I also agree I am not sure how I will feel about this but to be honest I hate it is ending regardless. I think I will be pretty much satisfied however it ends (mostly) no matter how sad I will be.

      Like: Thumb up 3

  25. FringeToday says

    Okay, is Olivia dump or what??
    She heard that the plan is to reset time and she’s like … Yay, I get my daughter back O____0 !!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 18

    • FringeToday says

      Also, if Wyman decides to do a happy ending with PO hugging and stuff, I hope he provides some reasonable way to explain how Peter and Olivia would meet if time is reset, otherwise, Fringe gets my thumbs down on this….

      Like: Thumb up 5

      • says

        Multiverses have multiple outcomes. If this universe resets and Peter and Olivia never meet, then the boy can correct this in another universe, where Peter wíll meet Olivia.

        The whole Bishop Paradox will be answered.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 46

    • number six says

      There is only one reason why she would say such a stupid thing. Think about it, they are talking about the plan and without any basis whatsoever she gets the idea that they’ll get Etta back. It’s so mindbogglingly dumb, that there is only one reason they’d include it in the script and that is, because that’s exactly what’s going to happen. As many people have speculated, the reset will be to the day in the park.

      Like: Thumb up 5

      • Scott42444 says

        Well, in reality, she could be blinded by her grief. She could have had that one thought (or thought that there was someway that Walter and September could find a way to)… bring Etta back. Hell, a lot of people on here thought that the series would end at the scene at the park. She thinks less scientifically than the rest of the team. Plus, as a parent myself, I might have to latch onto that thought if I was grieving that much. It might be my only motivation.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 58

    • Red Balloon says

      In fact I think it’s quite the opposite, she’s ahead on the game by thinking that everything can be undone, and still have it their way. She sounded pretty confident to me…if not why ask “You don’t believe me?”. She said ” that boy in there, he’s how we’re going to see ‘Etta again” … WE, so she’s convinced about seeing Etta again, not thinking about Peter not existing, because of the ridiculous things people are saying…He’s being there, done that of disappearing, and now his return has nothing to do with time-lines, because they’ve already defiance that outcome by bring him back out of “love”. I think now I understand the Etta’s importance according to September…because she’s the reason Olivia will trigger her cortexiphan abilities by seeking help from the other side to try to get the boy back.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 40

  26. Ben says

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I had tears in my eyes at least three times during that episode. Christ knows what I’ll be like next week! It was utterly brilliant from start to finish in my opinion.

    I have mixed feelings about the potential for the entire show being reset, while it would in a way render the entire 5 seasons pointless, it would also be quite poignant in that the only reason that peaceful world exists is because of the sacrifices and hardships the team went through.

    The fact that John Noble has described the finale as “mindblowing” implies that we’ll be getting some kind of twist, which could mean this idea of the entire story being re-set is merely a red herring. Only time will tell!

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 10

  27. NL says

    If the Observers are going to be erased then won’t Peter be erased as well? Since September saved him from drowning in the lake? Therefore no Peter, no Etta, and with Walter sacrificing himself, only Olivia will be left. Do you think this is how it has to play out or will there be a last minute way to keep Peter in the picture?

    Like: Thumb up 1

    • kidentropia says

      There is always the possibility of a last minute (or last second!) absolutely unexpected twist! I mean, why not? This is Fringe! The last Fringe there will ever be!

      Like: Thumb up 0

    • Surun Tunne says

      if the observers are going to be erased, september wouldn’t interfere walternate from finding the cure, therefor peter would grow up in the red-verse

      Like: Thumb up 4

  28. kidentropia says

    Oh, that scene between Walter and Peter. Holy Jacob, it almost made me cry. What a wonderful episode. Now i´m officially excited for the finale, specially after watching the promo!
    This is about to end, guys!!!

    Like: Thumb up 2

  29. Amanda says

    I also think that everything will change. And I think there is still a possibility of a over here Peter alive.

    Anyway, the whole Fringe problem was about Walter taken Peter from the otherside. If time is reset, Olivia maybe would go over there instead, because of the trials. Olivia is Olivia because of that trials. But maybe, If Walternate finds a cure and Walter never stole Peter, he would make the cortexiphan trials?

    There are lots and lots of paradox in this story. If Olivia was never Walter’s guinea pig, she would, maybe, never be an FBI agent, never met Peter, never have Etta, but the world would be a better place. This would be the ultimate sacrifice, not just for Walter, but for all of them.

    Like: Thumb up 0

  30. justin says

    i know this is kind of silly and not on topic with what you all are talking about, but i was kind of hoping that windmark’s “commander” would have been Milo Stanfield (from ‘The Plateau’..).. when that episode ended he was on this crazy computer, and i have always had it in the back of my mind that he could have been chatting with the observers, and would make an appearance later on. the way his brain compartmentalized probabilities seemed very similar to (the observers)- it would have just been a fun little callback.
    Regardless, good episode. would love to say great episode, but with only two left, i know time constraints wont allow for all questions to be answered. i know that is abrams style, but gah. i would reeally like to know the deal with the etta “resist” posters. it wouldnt take long. just give me that.

    Like: Thumb up 1

    • Surun Tunne says

      “i would reeally like to know the deal with the etta “resist” posters. it wouldnt take long. just give me that.”

      the resistance made them.

      there you have it! :)

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • says

      Milo Stanfield was a “call forward” Or actually the word is foreshadowing of what the Observers do in their personal timelines. It was really quite brilliant to realize this, i am sorry you seemed to miss it.

      Like: Thumb up 1

  31. 134sc says

    Bringing the discussion back to the episode at hand, I don’t know if I love this episode as much as everybody else. I felt like so much happened yet at the same time nothing happened. At the end I felt a bit underwhelmed. That being said, I don’t want to rate this episode, until I see next weeks episodes, becasue I feel that this episode was part 1 of a 3 parter, and I think it will stand up better when put directly infront of 5.12.

    As for what we found out in this episode, I loved it. Talk about information overload. So this all started becasue September had feelings for his scientifically engineered son. Interesting. The observers removed his tech as punishment for such feelings and continuing to meddle with the timeline. Less interesting, but I can buy it, why not (but really seeing as they don’t care about anything, wouldn’t killing him been a better option). The plan is a different way in which to reset time, which is also interesting. Something tells me that it won’t be that simple, or at least I hope it won’t be that simple.

    Seems as thoigh there are no female observers becasue many of them are engineered in a lab. What confuses me about that is clearly there are still “human” obserevers that need the tech in order to have abilities. If there are no females in the future, how did the “human” observers even exist? This is a question I doubt we will get an answer to.

    My hope is in these last two episodes that there are some questions we will get answers to (maybe some of these have already been answered in the course of the show, if they have, then I need somebody on this board to help me out).

    – This episode helped me to understand why September saved Peter in the original timeline, but why did Peter have to be erased? And why was he allowed to come back?
    – What is the siginifcance of the RedVerse as it relates to the Observers?
    – Is William Bell still alive? How is/was he connected to the Observers? Remember he had technology that was able to capture Observers. How did he get this? Why did he need it?

    Finally, I am hopeful that they don’t completely reset time. I mean they could do it in a satisfying way, but I still don’t know how I feel about it. Josh Jackson’s comments make a little more sense now, he said (and im paraphrasing) that some people will love it and get it right away, while others won’t and it will take some discussion for those who disliked it, to maybe come around. To me his comments scream time reset, but hey what do I know?

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    • says

      I can answer one of your questions: (just know it is a complicated answer)

      “- This episode helped me to understand why September saved Peter in the original timeline, but why did Peter have to be erased? And why was he allowed to come back?

      Peter had to be erased for the following reasons:

      The original Timeline had a doomed future due to September saving Peter, and Walter keeping him in the Blue universe. This resulted in Blue Olivia meeting a child Peter, then inadvertently crossing over to let Walternate in on the secret that his missing son was kidnapped by his doppelganger, and kept in the other universe. This led to the animosity between the Red and Blue universes. This then led to a war that would end up ultimately leading to the destruction of one of the universes via the machine that was found buried in the ground of both universes. (I believe the Observers created the original split that allowed both to exist side by side.) This then led to the crumbling of the other side eventually leading to what would be the destruction of the blue universe too if not for the perpetual loop created by sending the machine parts back to the paleolithic period (which is before the split that creates the parallel universe.). This loop was the tool that allowed the Observers to have a continued existence in this future-less timeline, as a possible future since the loop repeated umpteen amounts of times. But in order for the invasion to take place, that would ensure their possible future does in fact come to pass by the probability of 99.9999% as Commander Baldy mentioned, they had to end the loop. This then brings up the problem of both universes getting destroyed again, So this brings me to part two of the answer to this question…

      Why Peter was erased (with a bonus of the “how it happened” that I came up with to satisfy me own frustrations regarding season 4).

      Main point is Peter had to “go” for the timeline to become un-corrupted, but the paradox is that only Peter could control the machine, so with those parameters in mind, lets proceed.

      In the TDWD at the exact moment that Peter had just balanced the universes, and created the bridge, September, who was outside of the Statue of Liberty commenced “erasure protocol” He slipped back to the Raiden Lake incident of 1985, and instead of saving Peter like he had in the last loop, he simply let him die, which in turn broke the loop, and immediately created a new timeline branch from that moment on. This explains why from our perspective Peter was there one minute, and gone the next second, (think Back to the future timeline dynamics) and why the people he was just talking to suddenly stopped remembering him, and that he was ever even there. This is also why December was so impressed by that fact.

      So now that you know “how” Peter was erased, lets look at the “why” and then the subsequent “why” he was allowed to return.

      Without a Red Peter existing in a blue (Now Amber) world, then there is no way young Olivia ever meets him, which in turn means she doesn’t go blabbing her mouth to Walternate in an accidental cross-over, which means Walternate never figured out where his boy went, which led to him letting go, and allowing himself to realize he’d never again see his son. This then led to a much healthier relationship between Walternate, and his Elizabeth, and a more well adjusted Walternate over all. This then prevented the war between the universes, which in turn led to a future for both worlds. This is what gave the Observers possible future a more probable existence.

      Now for why Peter was allowed to re-exist. (How is up to much speculation, but I see the timeline as a cassette tape that has been recorded over, and Peter was a bleed-through from the last recording (iteration). September, being the father he is, and after having seen the lengths Walter went through just to ensure the survival of a version of his son, could not bring himself to erase the bleed-throughs from the old timeline. This led to Olivia’s past timeline existence to bleed back into her consciousness, and eventually Walters too as we just saw last week. But it also brought up a potential problem for the Observers since they equate Peter’s existence as the catalyst for the corruption of the timeline, so as soon as they saw that September allowed his re-emergence, they tried to lock September out of the universe to stop his meddling, which didn’t permanently take as we saw. This sent them into a search for the best time to invade, and they must have felt that 2015 was the optimal time before the Peter situation could get anymore out of hand. And there you have it. All of Fringe up till now put into a concise bunch of run-on sentences :P

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      • Walternate says

        It seems you and I had similar ideas. Though you were able to spell it out a little better than I was

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      • Surun Tunne says

        “which means Walternate never figured out where his boy went, which led to him letting go, and allowing himself to realize he’d never again see his son. This then led to a much healthier relationship between Walternate, and his Elizabeth, and a more well adjusted Walternate over all. This then prevented the war between the universes, which in turn led to a future for both worlds. This is what gave the Observers possible future a more probable existence.”

        but there still WAS a war between the universes…walternate still somehow found out that peter was kidnapped into the other universe (my explanation is that he figured it out becuase elizabeth told him that a man that looked exactly like him, took him but the truth is, it doesn’t really matter how exactly he found it out, all of those important moments just HAD to happen because the second peter vanished in TDWD the two sides were obviously still standing infront of each other in a room that is now the bridge between the universes. In this overwritten timeline peter still was the one who created the bridge, they just thought the machine somhow did it on its own because they couldn’t remember peter)
        anyway, so walternate still went to the other side, not to get peter back because he found ou that he died.
        he just did it to find the pieces of the machine to destroy the other universe and save his own.

        so, the reason why peter was erased was not because then there would be no war, it was because he was the catalyst, the reason why walter broke the universes, it was because he never should have lived in the blue verse…he was a paradox.

        so when september should finally erase him for real at the start of season 4, he didn’t do it because he knew that peter had to get back together with our olivia…so that they could get etta, who was able to block her thoughts from the lizards and teach it to other people and because of that, she was able to get peter, walter and olivia back, so that together they could fight the animals in 2036.

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        • Scott42444 says

          The part with the “machine being exactly the same and being turned on and healing the worlds” but without Peter doing it is what RUINED Season 4 from making sense.

          I always thought, and hoped, that Peter would have realized that he WAS in the correct timeline. Just that he was erased. He would have finally convinced Walter to help him “get back home” (God, what a bunch of “fake drama” that was, terrible misdirection by the writers) he would have found – UH OH! The machine interacts with me?!?!?! But Walter, how did the machine work before? Walter says, it just turned on! Then it stopped and the two universes were combined at Liberty Island. Peter realizes what happened, that he IS HOME! But, the Observers were playing games with time. Because, there is NO WAY the machine would have been made, used, sent back through time, etc. the SAME EXACT WAY as it did with a different set of circumstances. They could have had Walter say, just like Rick said, “It must be like when you record over a betamax cassette, there is sometimes a bleedthrough from an old recording, that’s how you came back Peter!”. Then, Olivia gets her memories back. Boom. The Observers were able to play SOME games with time but it was lazy, trickery. They never thought they would have to cover every angle but they didn’t count on human emotions, more specifically LOVE, to have an ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EFFECT! OMG!?!? I am not saying “love” does have a scientific effect, but in the world of Fringe an old woman almost ripped a hole in the universe because she missed her husbands old, saggy balls (not to be crude but that episode makes me cringe a bit, a little scary that those 2 “lovebirds” could kill us all). So, in the World of Fringe, love DOES have an actual scientific effect. But, once again, the whole machine thing is SO COMPLETELY DEPENDANT ON PETER BISHOP’S INVOLVEMENT THERE IS NO WAY I COULD EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, SUSPEND MY DISBELIEF ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY THE MACHINE STILL BEING ON LIBERTY ISLAND AND STILL HEALING THE 2 WORLDS AND BRINGING THEM TOGETHER. They were sent back because of Walter, who did it because of Peter and his love of both Peter and Peter’s grief over the loss of his wife Olivia. The pieces were sent back by Astrid and Olivia’s niece and Walter with Peter’s DNA as a key piece of it. All of it would not have been there at the same time if Peter never existed.

          /RANT

          Sorry, but I rewatched Season 4 recently and the machine is the actual part of the story that makes Season 4 not work and will NEVER work in my head. It is beyond coincidence that all of that stuff would still be there without Peter’s involvement. It makes his sacrifice mean NOTHING. He wasn’t needed at all. He stopped existing for NO REASON since everything would have been fine without him anyway! Just stupid beyond all reasonable doubt. Sorry, I love the show but the writers made a few monstrous mistakes in Season 4.

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          • Surun Tunne says

            peter DID bridge the universes, no matter what timeline it is…they just thought the machine did it on it’s own when in reality it wa still peter.
            the reason why there was an overwritten timeline with a bridge and without peter was BECAUSE of his sacrifice.

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            • SissySiri says

              I’m sure someone may have written about this, or similar. It is rather simplified thinking but sometimes over analyzing things gets a person caught in the weeds.

              I was thinking what if since Olivia appears to get a mega dose of Cortexiphan (per the promo), in the last 15 minutes of the Fringe finale she finds herself in their apartment, ready to go to the park with Peter and Etta. She remembers the recent past; she notifies the Federal Government of the impending worldwide invasion; all governments act and turn thousands of Observers into Swiss cheese. The Observers say, these humans are too troublesome; we will go to the Omega Centauri Galaxy!!! Happy ending. :-)

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            • Scott42444 says

              But, he did bridge the universes. Okay. But, he and Walter are working on a way to “change the machine interface” so that Peter can interact with the machine. There are scenes of it. That means that wiping Peter from the timeline also took his DNA sequence out of the machine interface (or whatever). So there had to be some series of events that led to them digging up the machine and it starting and bridging the hole between the worlds. They should have used the machine as the “OMG, this thing is still made for Peter Bishop, what the Hell?!?!?! He wasn’t supposed to exist!”

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        • ian says

          “because of that, she was able to get peter, walter and olivia back, so that together they could fight the animals in 2036″.
          Thks, surun, for reafirming what I SAID way back in the beginning of this season.

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  32. Walternate says

    Another possibility just came to me, and it has to do with September’s own motivations. I think it’s completely possible that September is in this for the long con. It is arguable that the entire reason the show started is because September distracted Walternate, giving Walter cause to cross over to the other side. He created the biggest hiccup in time, causing the events of the show to proceed. It’s hard to say any of the Fringe events investigated should have happened. Of course this is judging by “real world” standards. I think September is planning to correct his mistake with the plan, and this might be the time reset we will see. There is precedent for ‘fixing’ the hiccups in time, as seen with August, as well as September being ordered to erase Peter in ‘Neither Here Nor There.’ If September wants to set all this straight, it is conceivable that he would go to these lengths to ensure that the his mistake would be fixed. All the events leading up to the Observer invasion would be irrelevant, because it would essentially never have happened. Walter wouldn’t crossover starting the war between universes because September would not have been there to distract Walternate from making the cure, therefore Peter wouldn’t need to be saved. It is also conceivable that the Observers, with their newly created anatomy coming from Michael, that they wouldn’t ruin the Earth in 2609 and have to travel back to 2015. It’s a little tedious I know, but it make sense when you think about it. If this is true, it would also seem that the Observers travel back in time AT ALL actually caused a hiccup in the natural course of events. It’s killing two birds with one stone, really.

    Thoughts?

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    • Scott42444 says

      I think you said what most of us have been thinking (although I didn’t really correlate the August “hiccups” scenario).

      We have to make the assumption that the “Original 12 Science Team” (designated names based on the months of the year) were sent back to do research as to what year is best to invade AND which universe (assuming that their meddling DID NOT cause there to be a multi-verse in the first place). So, all of the notes that are taken and all of the historical events that are witnessed are all just to determine the CLOSEST to 2609 as the Observers can be yet still have the ability to completely dominate the populace (also, it can’t be too close to 2169 or whenever when the Observers were technically created because there might be a chance to just stop that event I guess). If Michael is brought to the scientist who “invented” Observers then I would assume the Observers newly implemented feelings would cause them to not destroy “Mother Earth”. Whew. They could have spent a significant amount of EPISODES worth of time just discussing the ramifications of messing with time. It might have been more interesting than:

      Step 1) Remove tape from amber
      Step 2) Go find item
      Step 3) Fight or evade loyalists
      Step 4) Repeat Step 1-4

      Also, once again, why would the split the parts of the plan up?!?! They should have put everything but the magnet into the pocket universe with Michael. Splitting up parts of the plan, each of which is integral to the plan’s success, made everything a lot riskier (is that a word?)! They should have put everything in Walter’s secret lab basement OR in the pocket universe. Donald should have lived there, too. He could have brought some food and water with and just waited for Walter and hoped. Oh well, that wouldn’t have been as interesting I guess.

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    • ML says

      I think the finale will involve Walter having to undo his primal sin

      I’m sure P/O will end up together no matter what. Perhaps what we saw in S4 will happen. Meaning Peter will grow up in the red verse but he will still meet Olivia and they fall in love and have Etta.
      But the memories of what happen in these 5 seasons are still there in their subconscious.

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    • Walternate says

      It’s been a long time since I’ve watched Inner Child but I believe it was very early 1900s. Like 1912 or so.

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        • Walternate says

          I really don’t know what to think. I’m just spouting out possibilities.

          As for September not being shrewd or devious to go into a long con, I think that answers itself. Just in last night’s episode, he was telling Walter that ‘the boy must live,’ but that was back in 1985, and he wouldn’t actually even discover Michael for another 24 years. And then he would completely forget about him come timeline reset.

          September also told Walter that he would need him one day, but again that was also before the timeline reset.

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        • Walternate says

          Long con might not have been the right word, but if he does in fact have a plan to fix the timeline that he disrupted then I can see him putting together a rather meticulous plan. Everything leading up to the events of Inner Child so that he would meet the team.

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          • says

            If September had a long term goal, and after numerous calculations, maybe he concluded that distracting Walternate would better his endgame.
            After all, in the game of chess, 2 Bishops are better than 1.

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            • Walternate says

              You make a good point. And I do love Walternate’s presence. I don’t know why, but ever since season 3 I’ve liked seeing the other side more.

              Like: Thumb up 0

              • Scott42444 says

                Me too. I think that is a testament to how fully fleshed out the shows creators made “Over There”. They really had fun with it and made it seem real. The Red intro. The MLK $20. Mantis vs. Batman. The Twin Towers. Obama’s sons. A 45-year old Len Bias winning the NBA MVP (that last one is more of a mistake, Len Bias was good but even if he didn’t die he wouldn’t play for 22 years and win an MVP at 45).

                Heck, even the different color scheme. It seemed to have a slightly different “color”, or light filter or saturation or something. This Season 5 is different too and I think that it works to make everything seem more “bleak”. But Red and Blue had a slightly different “tinge” to the colors.

                So anyway, I loved it too. It was different. I never wanted this show to become “Sliders” but I really think that they had something going and sort of abandoned it. They were able to develop all the characters while doing it so I wish that they would have explored the multi-verse a bit more. But, only 2 hours left so I am not going to bother complaining now. We get to go “Over There” one…..last…….time…..SWEET!

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  33. ML says

    I don’t like that they rectoned the with the boy must live but I could have gone with it if they didn’t have Walter straight ask if September was referring to Peter.
    Why not just leave it be therefore having the stories parallel each other to blend it into the larger themes of the show. Argh.

    I still miss Olivia. Hard for me to fully enjoy S5 with such a lack of the shows most dynamic character. Or she us to be. She still is but man, Wyman you really have a lot of explaining to do for reducing Olivia this season.

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    • says

      I miss Olivia as well, but kind of understand her muted presence this season. Think about it, up until this season, Olivia has been the focal point–her personal growth being examined–AltLive, amberLiv, etc. as well as her past (childhood) and how it affected her. The last portion of the Olivia character’s arc is to ‘truly love’ and ‘trust’ unconditionally. This is the culmination of her journey — in “Human Kind” she was the one who saved Peter by convincing him love is the most important thing. In this episode, it was Olivia who jumped to the conclusion about Etta. Olivia, who initially had doubts about her ability to be a mother and fully embrace Etta is now the one who is grasping at straws to have her back.

      Again, I would like to have had her more active, but emotionally, she was very much in the picture this season. I guess what I’m saying is the only thing left for her to do was ‘let down her walls and LOVE without reservation.’

      I know Anna Torv must be thrilled to be able to play AltLiv one more time. She (Anna) has said in numerous interviews that she enjoys playing the alternate version probably more than the original (that’s my commentary). So, I’m happy that Anna is able to get the chance one last time.

      With that said, episode-12 looks to be heavy Olivia (in action) which I think is kind of cool since we started with Olivia. Ol’ girl has come a long way since finding her in bed with John Scott. Not sure if that’s good or bad. I guess it is what it is . . . :)

      Wow, I can’t believe this is the end. I’m gonna miss this place called FRINGE. Until next week . . .

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      • says

        One last thought. Maybe I’m just a softy and appreciate the softer side of our hero. This season has been about the Bishop boys, but Olivia has always been the driving force . . . if you think about it, we’ve been seeing this whole thing unfold through Olivia’s eyes. Hell, if it weren’t for Olivia, there would be no Bishop boys.

        Maybe I’m making excuses for my own reasons. I try to find the positive when situations aren’t exactly how I’d like them to be. Yeah, badass Olivia has been a blast and I missed her this season, but I simply adore the character (and Anna Torv’s top-flight acting) and greatful to have her on the screen every week. :-)

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      • Surun Tunne says

        I agree…olivia could’ve been more active this season but I really liked what we saw of her…the first time she met etta after she got out of the amber, that touching speeches she gave in the recordist and the human kind (and the way she macgyvered the bullet in that guys head)…and I also loved her performance in “an origin story”
        I also liked it when she said that “squeeze my hand” line to michael again, just like in the episode “inner child”.
        oh, and there are still 2 eps to go! :)

        for some reason, thinking about the end didn’t really hit me…until right now….I’m so going to miss new eps about this outstanding show and I will miss all those great conversations here on FringeBloggers…I mean, I am sure we will all still hang out here after the finale but it will just never be the same again….

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    • Scott42444 says

      I agree with the “Boy Must Live” stuff.

      Hey Walter, remember when you were nearly freezing to death? You know, right after you kidnapped a little boy from ANOTHER UNIVERSE?!?! Right after you almost killed him? You remember? I am sure your memory is 100% on that. It was in 1985 and it’s 2036. That was only a half of a century ago. Well, I TOLD YOU THE BOY MUST LIVE! I mean, you Walter of all people shouldn’t have any problem remembering things. You never seem to forget. I know this since I have watched you since you were born, basically. I knew that you would have a great memory.

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  34. earthbrah says

    Reading this thread caused me to think of something…

    The whole idea of the Observers was originally to personify the scientific tenet of ‘the observer effect.’ Oversimply, observing an experiment or process alters the results or nature of that experiment or process.

    Remove the Observers and you remove the alterations their existence caused. But the devil’s in the details, which is what we’re all wondering about…

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  35. earthbrah says

    Also, I really loved the tiny little nod that IMO Peter gave to Mulder when he responded to Olivia in the kitched with “I WANT TO BELIEVE that too.”

    Ahh, the possibilities…

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    • says

      Didn’t put it together, but love it.

      Actually, I just got the ‘I Want to Believe’ poster the other day–ordered it on line for $4 from some store in the UK. It took weeks to arrive, but hey, for 4.00, I get a bit of my, other, all-time favorite television show obsession. Just sayin . . .

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  36. earthbrah says

    Yep, good questions, RT. An observer is usually one who is not inside what is being observed, though admittedly that notion has been sort of shattered with the events that have unfolded in this story. It is surely fair enough to think that we are the true observers of this story/experiment, though I don’t believe that makes us the narrator.

    Must let these questions marinade a bit more ;)

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  37. MISSNETT says

    A thought

    I know some are disappointed by the revelation that “the boy is important. He must live” doesn’t refer to Peter anymore. At first I was too, but then I thought about it and I still think it refers to Peter but also to Michael. Peter is still important because without Peter surviving the lake none of this would be possible. It now has multiple meanings. Kind of like September’s comment to Peter on the roof. “It must be difficult being a father”. I at first thought that it meant Walter and Peter. Then after Henry was born I took it to mean not only Walter but Peter and him being a father. September knew he would have to erase Henry when creating the bridge. I know Peter didn’t know about Henry then but I thought of this after Peter was in September’s mind and found out about him. Now to me that also means September and Michael. There have been a lot of things in Fringe that end up having multiple meanings or uses. Amber being the biggest one. We are shown the amber way back at the beginning being used as a terrorist attack but later shown it being used as a way to stop vortexes on the other side. Was this the plan all the way along? How much is planned by the writers and showrunners and how much is used as it’s needed to further the story. I can’t even begin to guess but if it works and means something then I don’t have a problem with it. Wyman has said we would look at the whole series different after the finale. I wonder if this is what he was meaning. I mean for me each season has made me look at each previous season differently. So this could just all be on a bigger scale then first thought.
    Now I feel I’m not making much sense so I’ll leave it at that.

    I will miss this! All the discussions, theories, arguments…

    Like: Thumb up 7

    • megan says

      I wasn’t happy when September said that it was about Michael. But the way you explain it makes sense and I’m much happier believeing it still involves Peter!

      Like: Thumb up 3

    • Scott42444 says

      I agree with you. I thought that the “white tulip” was a good example in that very episode. September used the white tulip for multiple meanings. It originally meant something to Walter when he was contemplating how to tell Peter the truth (I just rewatched that episode on Wednesday on Science, btw!). September used it again BEFORE Walter retained his blue-verse memories and now he is using it again AFTER he has retained his blue-verse memories. Heck, the whole “time reset” idea worked well in White Tulip as well. Even though nobody remembered Alastair Peck he still had a way to influence the Fringe team.

      Anyway, I am glad that they threw in the white tulip idea because it is a lot easier to take a leap of faith on “The boy must live” having multiple meanings. Isn’t that the way the Observers think? Especially September. He has people say things in order to effect the future but sometimes they think there is a certain meaning at first (the violet sedan chair episode is another example, as is the episode where Peter chases September onto the roof and Walter saves the asthma girl’s life, even though he thinks that Peter could die). Anyway, I think that Fringe gets a PASS on certain things like a “ret-con” of an idea, same as they get a pass on multiple universes and multiple timelines and time resets BECAUSE they have set a precedent for this stuff.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • ML says

        I could buy into the multiple meanings if the writers didn’t have Walter ask September if he was referring to Peter.
        They could have gotten away with the parallel if they didn’t include the question

        Like: Thumb up 3

      • Starman says

        In 4.14, “The end of all things,” September told Peter “You are important,” and went on to say that that was why he couldn’t allow Peter to drown in Reiden Lake. Therefore, it truly is a contradiction for him to now tell Walter that he meant his own son was important rather than Peter. I can buy that both Peter and Michael are important, but the writers never should have suggested here that only Michael is important. Peter was essential in ending the war between universes, which would have wiped out everything (including Michael). For that reason alone he is important, so Donald’s answer to Walter’s question should have been more nuanced, something like “Yes, but your son was also important for ensuring my son’s survival.”

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        • Surun Tunne says

          I would say that he had to save peter because without peter, there would be no reason for michael to live because..well both universes would’ve been destroyed if peter wouldn’t have bridged them.
          peter had to set things right first before they could use michael for the plan.
          so september saved peter BECAUSE michael is important for the plan.
          just because he was reffering to michael in the episode “peter” it doesn’t mean that peter was not important.

          not sure if I am making sense but yeah.. :)

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  38. Drenami says

    Are we suposed to forget the part of “Inner Child” where we learned that there were others(that had been found)?

    Like: Thumb up 2

    • Surun Tunne says

      I’ve thought about that too.
      possible explanation may be that the CIA was also aware of the observers in general and that the guy just meant they found another one (of those weird bald people)

      Like: Thumb up 1

    • says

      Sometimes in tv series, ideas get put forth, that at the time are supposed to lead to something, but not all of them end up happening. These are called dropped plot points. I know it sucks that they didn’t go there, but no series cvn do everything they want to do, or else none of them would ever end. Sometimes in serial television, the stories become an organic thing that chooses to go a different direction than originally put forth. It happens. I can look past this. But at the same time, there is still time to address this in a way that could bring it back, although I doubt they will.

      Like: Thumb up 2

      • ML says

        Dropped plot points are one thing but changing important mythology explanations are another. Unless I’m misunderstanding a lot of the mythology, Fringe seems to have changed some very significant moments this season.
        Unless there’s some big twist in the finale I don’t understand what Wyman is thinking. I mean these are major changes that really weaken important moments from the early seasons.

        Not just the boy must live but what about Etta? Didn’t September tell Peter in 4/14 that the wrong child was born(Henry) and that he was supposed to be with Blue Olivia so that Etta would be born.
        Why did Etta need to be born? It can’t be just to free the Fringe team from amber? I mean..that is weak.

        I don’t understand how the writers could think that making these major changes doesn’t weaken the show.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

        • says

          I wouldn’t consider abandoning the whole “I’ve found another one” plot a major change. That is what I was referring to in my reply.

          You seem stuck over the words “The boy must live, he is important.”
          and “You are important.”

          Just because September was specifically talking about his som when he was talking to Walter makes no difference to the overall story, because…
          A. Walter had no idea who Michael was at that time, and September knew this.
          B. Walter heard it and applied it to Peter, which in the long run helped September to follow through.
          C. just because September had his son in mind when he said it does not mean it didn’t also apply to Walter’s boy too. Maybe September was making a correlation between both boys and Walter and himself.

          Basically relax, take a step back, and look at it from this perspective. It really isn’t that big of a deal, because we all know Peter is important, and thus so was Etta. Without Peter there would be no Etta, and without Etta there would be no Peter in 2036 (or Olivia, or Walter, or Astrid [even though Astrid has been reduced to handmaiden] or a plan).

          Like: Thumb up 2

          • ML says

            I think it is a big deal. Etta was important to free them from amber? What about her “I love being special”

            Also the other Observers talked about the boy’s significance after September interrupted Walternate and they definitely weren’t referring to Observer boy.

            Or how about this scene from Peter

            THE OBSERVER: He won’t live much longer. You must fix him. Your lab is six miles from here. Can you drive?

            WALTER: I think so. (after The Observer pulls the vehicle to the side of the road) Why… why did you save us?

            THE OBSERVER: The boy is important. He has to live. (exits the car)
            ———-
            That’s pretty direct.

            Seriously, I love Fringe but I have so many questions now.

            Like: Thumb up 2

            • says

              Did you even read my comment? :|

              Just because September/Donald said “Yes.” to Walter when Walter asked him if the boy he was referring to was Michael on the day that they were pulled from the lake does not mean he wasn’t using his statement to also mean Peter. Like I said it is obvious that Peter was the “Boy” throughout the whole series, it is just now also obvious that Michael was as well.

              Get it?

              If not then sorry…your loss. :(
              It still doesn’t take anything away from my viewing pleasure.

              Like: Thumb up 2

              • ML says

                Ok, yes I get what your saying but it still doesn’t add up to me.
                Season 4
                “You [Peter] are important. It was why I could not allow you do drown at the bottom of Reiden Lake. Why it was necessary to allow the other Dr. Bishop to cure you instead. In spite my efforts to set things right, these actions only culminated in further corruption of the timeline … a child was not meant to be … born to the wrong Olivia Dunham. She [Blue Olivia] is the one, the Olivia Dunham from whom your shared future is meant to spring”
                —————————————–
                Yet in 511, September’s plan seems only related to the Michael??

                Confused

                Like: Thumb up 1

                • says

                  I guess what I’m trying to say is; If you are having such a problem getting past this then I feel like you are missing the point of Fringe altogether.

                  Peter WAS/IS important to September. At the time he was even important to all the Observers, because he was what would allow them to finally end the looped timeline from seasons 1-3, thus allowing them to un-corrupt the timeline (by erasing him) so that they could get on with the invasion.

                  He couldn’t be erased before he went into the machine and chose balance, resulting in the bridging of the two universes, because how would the machine get activated? How then, would the two universes stop fighting a war that would destroy both of them, and the Observers with them if not for the truce created by the bridge? So they had to ensure he lived to make that connection, then he served his purpose so the retroactively erased him from the timeline after he bridged the universes.

                  After that September realized that his erasure didn’t fully take, and went against December’s orders to fully erase him because September knew that Peter would be a major player in getting his son Michael to his destiny.

                  “The Boy is important. He has to live.” HAD A DOUBLE MEANING. I cannot be any more clearer than this.

                  Peter’s destiny is inextricably tied to Michael’s destiny by virtue of several meanings.

                  He was, as I mentioned above, the loophole for the doomed timeline. He was part of the team that rescued Michael back in 2008 from underground, and made sure to keep him out of the CIA’s hands. He was the future father of Etta, who would eventually grow up to be a leader of the very resistance that would find him and his father and Astrid stuck in amber, and get them released, then allow him go on to find and release his estranged wife who is also integral to the resistance plan. He was also part of the same team that will have gotten Michael from his guardians in 2036, and protected him at all cost. (until Michael decided he needed to give himself up).

                  So again what September affirmed as him speaking of his own boy does not negate these other facts I just mentioned.

                  Without Peter’s importance then none of this would be possible. So quit worrying about the vernacular that was used in this last episode, and read between the lines.

                  Like: Thumb up 2

                • scully8 says

                  You know, ML, I totally understand your frustration, specifically around the Peter/ Importance question. I believe in the beginning that September was absolutely referring to Peter, however I also think he (trying to make it work) was talking about Michael too.

                  I can get past it, but I have to say the switch from Peter to Michael is pretty huge. On the other hand, it definitely recontextualizes the entire series . . . in a very interesting way.

                  Okay, since I’m on here. Do these tweaked plot points lessen Olivia’s significance? I love Olivia and have accepted her muted role in season 5, but I’m beginning to feel as though she isn’t as important as she once was and I would have a problem with that.

                  At the end of the day, Wyman and his team have mapped this all out to hopefully make sense. If it doesn’t make sense, I for one have still totally enjoyed the ride.

                  Like: Thumb up 4

                  • ML says

                    Yeah, I mean, I get what Rick is saying but it still feels like a retcon and significant moments of the previous seasons feel like they have different meaning now.

                    Olivia doesn’t feel so important now. Either does Peter. Its like watching scenes of Bell or Walter telling Olivia how special she is and how they are preparing her for war yet here in S5, its Michael who is important and special.
                    The story was better when Olivia and Peter were important and special to the the mythology.

                    Like: Thumb up 2

                    • says

                      I read elsewhere (on the forum) That perhaps, on that night when Walter brought Peter over here, and they fell through the lake, that September was watching, and saw how far this man would go for this boy, who is only a copy of his son, and it stirred an emotion in September which caused him to jump in and save them. Then, as they were driving down the road September could only think about this other boy who is his son in the future about to get destroyed, and sort of just blurted out to Walter that the boy is important, and the boy must live. He was sharing a relatable moment with and to Walter, even though Walter had no way to relate to him as of yet.

                      I do just want to clarify that I am not saying this wasn’t retconned, but that it really shouldn’t get to you like it is, because it doesn’t really change anything. It was a mistake they made by writing the lines that way, I just choose to forget about it. Otherwise you will be miserable trying to worry about all the loose ends that have come about in this story.

                      At least it isn’t as bad as LOST was with the loose ends, and shitty answers.

                      Like: Thumb up 0

  39. J.P. says

    I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. It’s probably my favorite of the season (which isn’t saying a whole lot, but still). I took a break from posting here, mainly because I had become completely disconnected with Fringe. That’s something I never thought would happen, but it did. I stopped watching episodes live, instead recording them and watching them a few days later. This is the final season of what used to be my favorite show, and I didn’t have any interest in it, whatsoever. Well, I can honestly say that this episode, and the sudden realization that the series finale airs on Friday, has finally reconnected me to Fringe after a very long time apart. I loved the Walter-Peter dynamic in this episode, and look forward to seeing more of that when Walter announces he plans to sacrifice himself in the finale. The child Observer revelations were clever and well executed, and I am very excited to see how it all ends.

    But…

    I still have some issues.

    I’ve wondered since 4×19 why the Observers would choose to invade the year 2015 to survive, seeing as it is really the worst choice. They knew that from 2015 and onwards, resistance movements would develop ways to kill them and prevent them from continuing their plans, not to mention the fact that the Fringe Division was active during that time. You know, the people that saved the multiverse from destruction over and over again. The people that had studied and followed the scientist Observers for years, learning their methods and abilities. One would think that a much safer year to invade and change Earth’s atmosphere would be, like… year one. The dawn of time, where there would be absolutely no resistance, no matter how futile. It would have a whole lot easier to just do it then. But wait, hold on… they chose 2015 because they had a 99.999 percent probable chance of succeeding… so if they have a 99.999 percent probable chance of succeeding in a world that kills them by the dozens daily, we have to ask ourselves; how bad would have the dawn of time been? It seems like a cop-out to me, but whatever, I’ll live with it.

    Now, onto September/Donald. The one thing that really stood out to me was that September was kept alive. His “punishment” was to become the very thing he longed to become for so long; a normal, emotional human being. That really doesn’t make any sense to me. September was a traitor who was trying to prevent his own people’s continued survival, and when the other Observers detained him, they didn’t kill him… they just removed his little device… What? Why wouldn’t they kill him? Or even erase his memory, along with removing the device? They just threw him back into the world with near infinite knowledge of the Observers and their plans. Even without the device, he’s still the smartest person on the planet, and has the most valuable information in that brain of his: the history of the Observers, the means to defeat them, all of it. So, I must ask again, why wouldn’t the Observers just kill September as punishment? Do they possibly have a moral code, of sorts, stating that it would be “wrong” to kill one of their own? If so, that would imply sympathy and empathy… emotions. They aren’t supposed to have emotions, though. I mean, they kill their “anomalies”, even though the anomalies are just variations of themselves, and innocent variations at that. September was guilty of betraying them time and time again.
    The moment the Observers realized September was a traitor, they would have destroyed him, thinking of him as just another “anomaly” because he developed the beginnings of emotions.

    And now we have an Observer “Commander”? What’s the point of that, or the logic behind that, exactly? To have a Commander means that there is a hierarchy, of sorts; that there are some more qualified than others to lead. So, why is this Commander more qualified than any other Observer to lead? What can he do that the others can’t? Now that I think of it, why are there ranks within the Observers at all? They’re all equals. They all have that same device in their heads, and can all think or do the exact same things. So, what’s the point of putting people in charge? The logical ranking system for creatures like the Observers would be to not have a ranking system at all. The Observers should all have a hive mind (yes, just like the Borg). That way, there’s no biased favoritism to determine who should become a Lieutenant, or a Captain, or a Commander, etc. If the finale reveals why the Observers have a ranking system, and why they all answer to a man of equal power, then I’ll be happy, but if it doesn’t, then Wyman is guilty of manipulative writing, yet again.

    Finally, if the Fringe team does reset time and prevent the Observers from ever existing, but Peter and Olivia still live happily ever after with Etta, then there’s going to have to be a perfect explanation as to why that is. Without the Observers, Peter should stay in the red universe, and Olivia should never meet him. Therefore, no Etta. If Wyman resorts to the old “the power of love” angle to explain how Peter and Olivia would ever meet in a world without the Observers, then I’ll be thoroughly disappointed. I’ve got no problem with an emotional, love-filled resolution, but at least have it make sense. The “power of line” sounds like a last-minute cop out because they couldn’t find any other solution.

    Still, I can’t wait until the finale. I expect the ending to be bittersweet, and I hope more than anything that it makes sense, and is, in fact, the “perfect” ending it’s been hyped to be.

    Like: Thumb up 1

    • ML says

      I thought about Red Peter and Blue Olivia meeting too and from what I understand basically from S4 is that they could have still met. Bell and Walter discovered the existence of the red verse before Peter was sick. The cortexi trials also began before Peter was sick so Olivia would still be capable of crossing over.
      If you ask why would Olivia cross over. Well, the Bell we saw in S4 trying to destroy the universe and create his own would be a reason. So Olivia could still join Fringe division, cross over and meet Peter.

      Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

      • says

        “September was a traitor who was trying to prevent his own people’s continued survival”

        oh, you are so wrong J.P.

        Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 13

          • Scott42444 says

            I would think that if they have NO empathy or value for “human life” it is because they view normal humans as animals. But, I think they would have to implement a “rule” or some sort of conditioning that you don’t kill other “Observers” (I use observers here for simplicities sake, but they clearly don’t use that term). Don’t kill Observers. Period. Or else, they would be killing each other for physical mistakes, like dropping something and breaking it. They would implement a ‘rule’ to try and replace empathy. That is why September isn’t killed. He isn’t an animal. Like an animal activist trying to release animals from an animal testing lab, they wouldn’t kill that activist. They would give them a slap on the wrist or jail time. I don’t think that it is really talked about enough but how many human beings die every year on planet Earth due to animals? We don’t eradicate all animals from Earth, do we? No, because that’s insane. But, we probably could based on deaths and injuries. Spider bites, dog bites, shark attacks, diseases transmitted from insects, bird flu, swine flu, wolfs, lions, hippos, etc. Have the Fringe team even equaled that many deaths yet?

            Like: Thumb up 0

            • J.P. says

              I agree that it’s a safe bet that the Observers have some sort of rule that prevents them from killing each other. And, while I enjoyed your animal-caused human deaths analogy… the Observers aren’t humans. Whatever a human would do is irrelevant when talking about what the Observers would do.
              So, even if they didn’t wish to kill September, why didn’t they keep him as a captive forever, or at least erase his memory before releasing him? It’s lazy writing.

              Like: Thumb up 0

      • J.P. says

        If the show states that’s how they meet then I’ll be perfectly happy. Until then, it’s just a theory.

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  40. ML says

    While Donald and Walter were putting together their plan where was Olivia? Did they just send her to retrieve the unifier yet didn’t clue her in on the plan? Really? Or what about Astrid?
    Cause it’d have been really cool if Olivia knew the plan.
    We still don’t know how she knew those coordinates in 503 and wondering if the explanation is coming in the finale.

    Well-loved. Like: Thumb up 12

    • Drenami says

      I think John Noble screwed up his line and either no one noticed, or they just hoped we wouldn’t and put it through anyway.

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  41. _lost_stef_ says

    OK I AM OFFICIALLY FREAKING OUT HERE!!!

    I JUST ARRIVED HOME TO AUSTRALIA FROM USA!! the first thing i did was watch the ‘The Boy Must Live’ and holy shit guys it was so good.

    Walter free styling in the tank, Donald/September is Michaels father, Walter revealing he will need to sacrifice himself for the plan to work. the plan being that they will send Michael into the future to stop Observers turning into what they have become therefore stopping the invasion. Michael stepping off the monorail and then is sent to the Windmark who freaked me out just by saying HELLO!!!

    AND THEN CAME THE PREVIEW AFTER THE EPISODE AND THEN MY MIND FREAKING EXPLODED ALL OVER THE TV SCREEN…… ALTLIVIA AND MY GOD SHE LOOKS SEXY LOL

    Like: Thumb up 2

      • _lost_stef_ says

        Rick a total bag of awesomeness then there was the White Tulip reference.

        Also a lot of people are saying the Peter may be disappearing because of the preview personally i think its just Olivia’s perception after she is injected with the syringe, she is like hazy and it seems like Peter vanishing but really its just Olivia’s mind playing tricks with us.

        BTW did i mention how awesome the episode was.

        Like: Thumb up 2

  42. jade86 says

    I was mad at first, but then i watched different times the scene with september and walter’s discussion and i can say that i’m not sure september was honest when he said that the “boy who had to live” was Michael. If you pay attentinon, as walter says that michael showed him the old timeline and the incident in 1985 and those famous words about “the boy”, September was pretty worried and before he said “yes” to walter’s question he didn’t answered immediately and when he didn’t even looked at walter in the eyes and judging from his tone of voice he didn’t seem so convincing. It was different when walter asked september about his fate because in that case september was looking at him in the eyes and with a firm voice he said “yes”.

    This helped me to think that maybe September is still hiding something. I mean…Why whould september say walter “my son is important, he has to live” right after he saved him and Peter in the lake in an episode that was about walter and especially Peter?? It’s totally out of context!
    And until now the other observers (december, august and the others) have ALWAYS talked about Peter everytime they mentioned “the boy”!
    A possible explanation would be that Peter and Michael are somehow genetically connected and that would be really cool!

    I also noticed that in this episode Peter is still unable to sleep, he wears a hood like Michael (why would he do that if the loyalists didn’t notice olivia and walter?) and in one of those scenes Peter’s head suddently lolled and then he massaged the forehead. Headaches are back! I suggest you to pay attention again to those scenes because they might be important for the last two episodes!

    Oh and….what about that intense white light that hitted Peter at the beginning of the episode and then vanished as nothing? That reminded me the scene from 5×07 with the same white light on Peter when he was an observer!

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